SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hey, what's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Burning Out Bush. I am one of your hosts, Josh Moyer, and this is my host, co-host, Padre.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Sure. I think this is episode five, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

That is crazy. It's like gone so quick, like we just started. But um, man, we got another great episode for you today. We mentioned last week, uh first, thank you to our Polka Daniels for helping us open up our discussion on youth ministry. That was part one. Today's gonna be part two, and we have Alan Middleton uh from over in uh Rockwall, Texas at East Ridge that will be joining us. Um, that is one of uh Rick's buddies, and man, you guys are in for a treat uh today as we talk with him. Great knowledge, great um communicator. Um, he will be fun, we will laugh together, and we'll be serious together. But um, hopefully you're gonna get continue to gain some knowledge or peek behind the curtain on what youth ministry life is about.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

That's right. So here we go. All right, and we are here with Alan Middleton. Alan is probably one of my best friends, and I'm glad he's on the show with us. Uh so Alan, tell us about yourself. Where are you from? Where are you now? Ministry, how'd you get there, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Well, I met Rick just today, so I don't know why he would say that. Kind of a weird way to open up. No, I've known Rick for a good long while. I consider him a really good friend as well. Uh Josh, we haven't known each other as long, but uh I'm I'm hoping that can continue to progress. I I don't know how do I condense my life story?

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Uh all right, that's all the time we have for today.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

I was uh born on a Saturday with a cold day. No, I I'm originally from Wichita, Kansas. I grew up in a large family. I have seven siblings. There were eight of us all together there in Wichita. We were all homeschooled all the way through high school. Sometimes a detail I leave out, sometimes one I put in for reasons. Um, and then uh I went on to man, I wanted to be a youth minister pretty much from the time I got in youth group. Uh, I was just so excited to be at all these youth group functions. We had a brand new youth minister when I got into youth group, Toby Levering. And uh man, I by the time I was 15 or 16, I was just haranguing him all the time about the ins and outs of youth ministry. Like what are the ups, what are the downs, what are the things that you've learned. And uh he'd only been in ministry for a couple years at that point. But he he was a good youth minister to me and uh um someone who I thought he could have done anything he wanted to do, and he chose to devote his life to getting teenagers closer to Jesus. And I couldn't, I couldn't think of anything better than that. So I went to Oklahoma Christian, I I pursued that. Uh I eventually got a master's from OC, something I'll only mention once, I promise. Uh, and that that was that was good. Um, I started doing ministry uh in Cleburne, Texas at West Hill. I was there for four years, and then I got the call uh to come to Eastridge, Church of Christ, in Rockwell, Texas, and we've been here for seven and a half years. Um, I'm married to my wife Jennifer. We have two kids, Caitlin, who is about to be six, and Max, who is about to be one. So we are a happy family of four. Um outside of that, I am kind of a stereotypical youth minister. I love pizza, I love movies, I love playing disc golf, I have a beard. I don't know. I just stereotypical youth minister things. Uh so yeah, that's that's me.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Cool, man. Well, thanks for being here again. Um, I know we've done a lot of youth ministry things together. We're we're close geographically, and so um you know, I look to you as a leader and example in a lot of things you do, and um I think we'll have fun just picking your brain. You know, I know you don't consider yourself an expert in ministry, and none of us are, but we all have experiences and I think you've got some some valuable things to add to the conversation. You want to jump in?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah, I mean, you guys, I'm assuming, met through Netsus, is that right? Through all the Netsus stuff? I think so. Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. Hey, you said you grew up in Wichita. Um, do you know Michael Jones? Uh he's a preacher after Wichita.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

I don't I don't think so. What church is he at over there?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

I can't remember. Shout out Michael though, in case he watches. Okay, all right, very good. Uh so well, that's cool, man. I'm glad you're on, and I look forward to today. I mean, this is our so we've had a part one for youth ministry, so you're kind of um ending it for us. We thought it that was a a subject we just needed to devote some extra time to. Um, just because so many ministers um kind of start there. Um, and um there's just so much more experience in in youth ministry than I think in any minister position. Um, so I'm I'm really looking forward to it and glad that you're on here.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

So thanks, Joe. Uh how long, how long were you in youth ministry uh until you took the demotion of pulpit ministry? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Um Rick gets mad because I'm like, when are you gonna go up to Paul? And he's like, but I like to rage bait him. Um so I started in youth ministry in 2008, um, part-time for the church that I grew up in. And then um all of those all of those things just kind of led into going full time. I always thought I was gonna be a teacher and a coach, man. I I wanted to coach football, teach science, and and so that kind of just I don't know, God was like, you're gonna do that, but my way. So I'd love their second. So um I started falling in love with um uh preaching uh probably in around 2018, so 10 years I was in youth ministry. I went and preached for two years uh up north. Uh loved where I was, church culture was a little toxic, but then came back, did two more years in youth ministry. So and then I've been preaching ever since. So I've got 12 out of my 17 in youth ministry. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah, Rick, what about you? How many how many years did you total out in youth ministry? Um so far, because you'll come back one day.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Yeah. See, I was two years part-time in college. Yeah. Two years part-time in college, and then since twenty fifteen full-time until last year. So what is this? It's about ten years or so full-time, less than a couple years part-time, and then this is six months into this new role. So all right.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

So yeah, well over thirty years between the three of us. That that should be some wisdom in there.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Yes. Yeah, the the guy we had our last episode had been 30 by himself.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah. So our youth ministry.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

He's not just a youth minister anymore.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Well, he's not now, but yeah, no. But but before he became a public guy, he had 26 years, I think, as youth ministry. So we have almost 60 years between uh two guests and the two of us just to talk about youth ministry. So that's good.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

You know, there absolutely absolutely are some legends out there who've done it their whole career. Yeah, yeah. And you know, should be writing the books and stuff on on that and all that.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

But I mean Clay, who we had on last episode, that you know, Alan watched this morning, but um, that's all he's ever done. Right. Is he 40 23 years between two churches, he said? Yeah, I believe that's what it was. So and I don't see him uh doing anything else. I mean, he I think he is one of those guys that uh while it's rare, I think they can go the distance in youth ministry.

unknown 7:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I have such respect for those guys that that go the distance. That is a rare thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah, so for sure. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Well, let's let's dig into the the nuts and bolts of youth ministry a little bit. And these questions are are all over the place. Uh so we're just kind of throwing some some different topics and questions at you. But this first one has to do with with metrics and how we measure success in youth ministry. You know, in our tribe, we we like to count baptisms and attendance and stuff like that. And those always, I mean, baptism is a pretty big deal, but if you throw those away, what are the things that really matter to help measure a healthy youth ministry, in your opinion, could sir?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah, I it's a good question because uh I would never be one to to discount those things as if they didn't matter. I think I I think having those metrics is useful. I think the the danger of overemphasizing uh those metrics is very real. Uh, I was just talking to you guys about reading the book, Your First Two Years in Youth Ministry, and it talks about the dangers of wrapping uh too much of yourself in those numbers of how uh well you're doing at your job. And while I think those are things to to pay attention to, it's good not to um just get your your identity too wrapped up into, you know, was youth group a big hit today uh or not. Like the ideal of the idea of just faithfully serving and trying to make sure that you are doing ministry from your blessing and not for your blessing, uh, to borrow a phrase from Henry Nowen, uh is is absolutely right on. Like you have to make sure that you're working out of your identity in Christ and not out of some sort of metrics performance-based. You know, I'm a good youth minister because I have the biggest program in town. That is just not a not a good mind space to be in. Uh so if we were if we were to strip that away and actually talk about what are very useful metrics and just determining the health of a youth ministry, I'm very quick to just look at relationships. I'm sure that's no shock to you guys. That's that's probably what you're thinking as well. But um, I like to look at relationships with the youth parents. I think uh it when you can, I found this as I've gotten older in youth ministry, paying attention to the the culture, the community of your youth parents is important. Um it's ideal if they like to be together and they like to you know talk to each other outside of class. And sometimes in youth ministry and family ministry, you get opportunities to facilitate um that a little bit. A lot of times that's not something you can control, it's just kind of the phase of ministry that you're in. Maybe you have a lot of sports parents that are seeing each other at games, and so there's a little bit of uh uh cohesion that's happening there even outside of church, and that can be a helpful thing. Um, but yeah, whether whether the parents uh actually enjoy uh kind of being around each other, around each other's kids, I think can be really helpful. Having a good small group ministry in your church that maybe helps facilitate that can be really helpful. Uh within the youth ministry itself, I I paid uh very close attention to the core group. And that could be any size. You know, that could be three kids, that that could be eight kids. I it just it could be a lot look a lot, uh look very different from youth group to youth group. But the the culture of that core group is so important because if you identify them as this is probably the core group of my youth ministry, other kids in your youth ministry also see that, right? They they they they can recognize that these are the kids that are coming to everything, that are um, I don't know, that are volunteering a lot. And the culture that they're bringing to the youth ministry is so important. Like I am I am all for having some extra expectations on those kids. You know, you guys are the ones setting the example for the rest of this youth group. And and whether that looks like you having some kind of leadership committee and it's formalized that way, or it's more informal, and you're just trying to maybe take some of those kids out to lunch uh intentionally once in a while, and really just just giving them that message of the culture in this youth group, man, I'm gonna do all that I can to implement Christ-like principles and that. But these kids are watching you guys so, so closely, and they will mirror what you guys do and they will pick up on your expectations uh and and probably um try to live those out a lot more than uh unfortunately what the adult youth minister has to say. Uh and maybe that's an excuse, but I've really seen that be be true in uh the different phases of youth ministries that I've uh had the privilege of ministering to. And then uh another indicator of that, maybe with your core group, uh, is this a youth group that has um you know pockets of friends that actually want to hang out together outside of youth group functions? I think that's a huge indicator uh of health in a youth group that they actually want to spend time together, whether it's at the church building or or you know at a at a Brahms, uh, shout out to Brahms. I love Brahms. Yes, my God. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's right. You've uh you you've spent some time on Oklahoma, you know. Um, but do they want to like spend that time together outside of youth events? Like, great, Diva's over, that was a good time. Now let's go hang out together and and keep this going. And uh I think that can be a huge indicator of uh some healthy dynamics going on in your youth ministry. That's what comes to mind first for me. Um, what what do you guys think?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

There was so something you said in there about your parents. We actually, who you've gotten to meet, obviously, but we just hired a new um youth ministry uh minister here, Nathan Dillinger, who we talk about. Nathan, yeah. Yeah, and that was something that early on I shared with him. I said, Look, he he wanted some advice about how to be successful. And I said, Look, it it is gonna come natural, one, just because of your your age to do all the fun stuff. But if you really want a successful youth group, first be successful with the parents. Um parents um sometimes they have unrealistic expectation, like me and Rick talked about this the other day, but they can make or break uh how successful you are within in the group. And and I Nathan's kind of taking that to heart, and he's got uh parents going with him to Winterfest, and he's got them go they got a retreat here in a couple weeks, and he's got parents going to cook and to be a part of that and building relationships. And I said, Hey, you need to be in their homes, not just to hang out with with their kid, but also to visit with them and become friends with them, and and man, they'll support you all day long. So I thought what you said there was was was pretty awesome. So yeah, um that's uh that is a surefire way to be successful in in youth ministry is to be successful with parents.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

I I think it really hard really hard to inhibit to to uh inhabit that early on in your youth ministry. I'm glad you talked to Nathan because being so young, that's an intimidating thing to want to include parents in the ministry because you feel like sometimes there's feelings of this is supposed to be my job, so I'm supposed to be doing all these things. Uh and sometimes it just feels like man, I I don't have I'm not in the same phase of life with these people, so maybe I'm not gonna talk to them as much or be as intentional with opening those communication channels. And then what you said, Josh is right on just building that culture of man, we want you at these events, we want you connecting with these kids, not just because your kid is here, but you may help connect with another kid who just gravitates to your personality more than the youth minister. I I think having the that extra uh adult volunteerism and that culture of volunteerism with your parents is so is so key. I totally agree. Absolutely. Rick, I cut you off. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Oh, I was gonna say that I think the most important metric is how much pizza you order every week.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

You know, there is a disconnect between it seems like this kind of generation or culture that we have today, where there's a disconnect between teenager and mom and dad or parent or you know, whoever's raising. So I think it's imperative that youth minister try to bridge that relationship. So if you can invite them to camps and and and let them see them listen about God and sing to God and pray to God together, if if a child can watch that from see that from their parents and then vice versa, that that just creates a relationship that's not just built on yes and no at home, but on a spiritual foundation too. So um there's there's so much important little metrics there, intricacies to um a youth minister. I actually like the the kind of term youth and family because it really puts a a cherry on hey, this is about building our families together. So yeah, I love that you brought that up. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

I'm making a note. We need to have an intergenerational uh discussion sometime. Yeah, we do, we do, absolutely. Um well, cool. Thanks, Alan. Let's uh we'll keep moving because we got some some good questions here. Um take the next one.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Okay, um, here's a question we wanted to ask you. I mean, how do you handle so really this is in in any ministry, but just specifically in youth ministry, how do you um handle the quote well-meaning criticism from elders and parents regarding the youth program without taking it as um a personal failure? And the reason why we ask that question is it piggybacks off the first one. Sometimes, you know, elders have a lot of pressure. I don't know if it's church culture or what it is to not be the next church that closes its doors. So they can get geared into the whole baptism and head counting more than they can be about growing really is is our discipleship and how that's playing out in the church. But so there ministry in general, but in youth ministry, um, maybe it's just easier to to criticize the young guy, if you will. Not that every youth minister is young, but you you know what I'm trying to say. But how how do you how do you take that criticism without feeling like you're being um you know criticized in a negative way?

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Yeah, well, yeah. What do you mean? That's never happened before. This is such a good, it's such a good question because it does happen uh to any minister who's been in longer than a second, then this this happens. And a lot of times it is just that. It's well meant, it's not attacking your worth as a human being or as a as a minister. Uh and some of it is just that, like knowing that just because they're criticizing a program is not them attacking your worth. Like that, it just trying to keep those things separate is so tough to do. Uh, because I I I have been guilty of very quicking, very quickly going to, okay, they're they're saying I didn't think this through. They're saying I'm not doing good at my job. Uh and maybe once in a while they do mean that. But in general, I would say 99% of the time, they're not trying to attack you. They're they're they're trying to uh point out something uh that could have gone better in a program or an event. Uh I would encourage uh any minister to, if you can, handle that with grace. Um it is it is a particularly hard thing when it's maybe directed towards not even just you, but maybe your your spouse. You I just listened to that episode where you guys were talking about being protective uh of your nuclear family. Uh and uh that that yeah, that's a that's a hard thing to do when it it's a criticism that uh made its way to someone in your family. But uh what I was gonna say is the idea of this criticism comes your way. Try as hard as you can to take that with grace and know that there may be uh a kernel of truth in what they're telling you. Like there may actually have a good point here or something you can change. And it it doesn't matter who it's coming from, it may be someone you respect or someone you don't respect uh as much. There may be something true about what they're saying that could improve on a program you just had. And just just being diligent about looking for that kernel of truth. You know, just eat the meat and spit out the bones and uh and and take it for what it is, and try not to just ruminate on these things later in the day and just think, what did they really mean by this? Or what are they what are they really trying to say about it? Just just know that that's not a helpful rabbit hole to go down. Um, I'm not always good at this, but that's uh that would be my advice to me. What do you guys think?

SPEAKER_01 18:48

I don't I don't know that anybody's good at it. I I'm certainly not taking notes over here. I I do like so I was as I was listening to you and read this question or thought of this question, I thought about me early on in ministry and then me today. And I and I would say to every minister, especially if you are young in youth ministry, with time it does get better. I don't know if it gets easier, but it it does take a lot of humble pie. And that's something I do tell young ministers is uh the first thing you need to get as a minister is tough skin. Um, because it's gonna be poked a lot. And um, you know, that's the reality. It's not that people are intentionally mean, or you may have some of those, absolutely. We're not gonna be naive, but it's not that they're intentionally mean. It's you know, they everyone has an opinion, and unfortunately, yeah, no one hears an opinion like a minister. So, but uh put that on the t-shirt. Yeah, we might have to put that on some merchandise or something, but uh but yeah, no, I I I totally, totally agree with you. That's that is it's tough. I mean, but it does get easier with as we ourselves mature in ministry. Um, and um, you know, it doesn't mean that you don't always have those thoughts in the back of your mind, but yeah, um, of like, well, why are they doing this? But yeah, I think what you said is is really invaluable. Like maybe just think about it for a second before you react, just think do they have a point? And you know, one of the things I've learned in as I'm I'm doing a leadership masters is we all have biases, we all we all believe that we're doing it right because maybe that's the way we've always done it, or maybe I'm just good at it. But like one of the things I've learned is that good leaders understand that there's a possibility that I might not be right, that I might need to clean something up. And uh so yeah, that's that's great information, Alan.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Yeah, I just was gonna add, um I struggle with this for sure a lot. I mean, it's one of my uh like signature moves is uh overthinking. Um but I know what yeah, I think something that that I uh to remind myself is we're all on the same team. That's right, you know, and when I hear something that's critical, you know, like we said, it's not not supposed to be personal. Sometimes it might be, but generally it's coming from a place of this is for the kingdom or this is for the good of the church. We do get you know, there are sometimes there's cheap shots or stuff, it's not fair, but um by and large I think it's uh supposed to be on the same team and cooperative and helpful. So um let's keep it going though. We um let me ask you a question.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Uh as older ministers, do like ministers that have been doing this a while, do we uh have a stewardship to kind of protect and help those younger ministers in this area?

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Do we do we feel like we do a good job of that, like mentoring them um in this kind of well let me for a second because I as I was hearing you guys talk, I realized my first uh several years in in youth ministry, I didn't have very much criticism at all.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

And I don't think that was because I was a perfect youth minister.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Uh honeymoon period.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yeah, it could have been the honeymoon. It wasn't the honeymoon. But I think also the church I was at just gave me a lot of grace. Yeah. They trusted me and they saw the good things I was doing. And they kind of let me just have the space to learn from my mistakes. And um, you know, we joked about it, oh gosh, six or seven, oh no, uh several years after I'd been there that, oh man, I I really oversold myself on my interview, didn't I? And they're like, Yeah, but we knew it, it's okay. And I was like, This is my family, I love them. Uh, and so like, you know, at a bigger church now, I feel like there's been a little bit more criticism. Yep. And I've wondered, is that because of the the scale? Is it just the people? Like, what's the difference?

SPEAKER_01 22:41

And I had a minister one time tell me, more people, more problems. Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

But that is not a bad thing. It's also they as shepherds or whatever have more to stewards. That's right, that's exactly right. So don't blame them.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

And that's not a knock at anyone. It's just when you deal with more people, there's more personality, there's more uh opinions. I mean, you're gonna have more coming at you. So it's not a natural thing more than it is uh a malicious thing, in my opinion, anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

So I remember someone telling me early on kind of what you said, Josh, the idea that ministers need to have uh thick skin and tender hearts and yeah, thick skin and soft hearts things, what they said. And I didn't I didn't really know what they meant by that. I was like, why would I need to have thick skin uh in my own church? It's like okay, I I get that now. I understand I understand what they were trying to say. And that is something that it is a learned skill, it's not something that you're immediately good at. And I think we could stand to be a little bit more intentional with our our young people in ministry, just expect those well-intentioned, but uh sometimes uh cutting words uh might come and how to handle those. That's uh that's good advice. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

All right, and like to go back to what you said, I think the leadership of the congregation matters too. Like what you just told me like relayed to me that you had really good church leaders that were sounds like they were doing it a scriptural way and not um um taking our earthly relationship with authority into the church, right? Yeah, so I I don't know who those elders were, but I appreciate them already for that. But yeah, but that's a different topic for a different day. Sure. It's coming up, that's coming up. There's the plug. Elders we love our elders, gotta hate them, gotta love them.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

It's uh actually, yeah, we're talking about elders and conflict and all that's gonna be great. Um man, I forgot I was gonna say after that, but it'll probably come back later. Let's let's move on. Um, all right, so you have a hard week. Sometimes it feels like Wednesday nights are usually the hardest for youth ministers. I don't know about you, Alan, but like there's always the the truth of don't resign on a Wednesday night, you know, or or don't don't don't hang it up. Don't send the email. Don't send the email, wait until you sleep on it or whatever. But whether it's a Monday morning or a Thursday, what is one thing you do to reset after a grueling time of ministry?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Uh my first thing that I would say, and I I know maybe not everyone's in a um a circumstance where they can do this, if it's been a particularly grueling weekend, like you you there is a a wedding, a funeral, a lock-in, uh, uh, you know, a weekend long service project, whatever it was, like don't work on Monday. I I I know that that's not everyone's situation, but if you can kind of flex those days where it's been a full weekend and it's not not like it was a particularly big busy afternoon, but like it was a lot of work. Uh I I would push for flexing that day on a Monday and just saying, Man, I need a day uh to rest. Like this thing went on from you know Friday night to Sunday morning, and I need I need some extra time. Um I I feel like as ministers, we're we're not very quick to give ourselves that, or at least from what I've seen, a lot of youth ministers, a lot of ministers are very quick to just take on more, take on more, take on more, uh, which can work for a while and can uh it can burn out the bush uh after a certain amount of time if you let it keep going that way. Now, if we're talking about just like on a weekly basis and you know you're having you know class and devos on a Sunday and you're just feeling tired, uh I I like starting Monday with uh a little bit of review time, like sit down with a fellow minister and just talk about how Sunday went, go get coffee, get out of the church building, go get breakfast, go sit in a park, and just uh if you like to play disc golf, go play disc golf and talk about how the weekend went um just for a little bit of time. Just get out of the office and just kind of decompress, uh review what happened, um, and talk about how to make things sharper and and better. Uh I think that time spent outside of the office can be uh so life-giving just because it feels like it's not uh, you know, it's it's not a conference meeting. All of a sudden it's just uh doing something shoulder to shoulder and reviewing and decompressing how the weekend went. Um and having an activity like that, uh whether it's golf or or uh disc golf or uh pickleball, whatever it is, uh something that gives you conversation time uh to talk about those things, I think is uh is great. Um and having having someone on your ministry team, uh whether you particularly like them or not, but just kind of a reaffirmation of we're on the same team and we're trying to make uh our Sundays, uh our times with our people as best as possible. I mean, don't let it just be a complete gripe session every time. Uh there'll be things to gripe about for sure. Uh, but let it be uh come around to an affirming thing of uh we have a goal and uh we're trying to make things better. To me, that's a great way to start a Monday where you're getting some time where it feels like you're you're re-energize re-energizing, but at the same time, you are uh trying to you know sharpen things and make them better.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah. We do staff meetings here, and I've all I've thought, you know, for a while, like after you've had a busy weekend, you you said something there that's so true. It is easy to to turn uh things into a gripe session. I mean it is so because and and this is part of why we're doing this podcast because ministers don't always have the the platform to vent and to express frustrations and things. So um like our staff meetings on Mondays, not that they are this, but it is easily done. Like we can so I thought, you know, for a while, like what could we do together that's more spiritual than just this? And so we've been going and having lunch together after the meetings. Um I wish we would have breakfast instead. Like I wish our staff meetings were somewhere else other than the building. That's a good idea. Just to get us out of uh from these walls, because this is if we're not careful, this uh being in here becomes a ministry identity. Uh and and ministry, in my opinion, takes place outside. Um, you know, we have our little percentage that it happens inside the building, but yeah, um, I feel like we could do a better job of of bringing the spiritual element in to what we do on Mondays. But for 15 years, I've always had Mondays off, and then when I came to Texas, they were like, no, you get Friday and Saturday. So but I've all always liked the Monday to just kind of decompress and spend time with my wife, take the kids to school, do the dad stuff that sometimes you don't always get to do, um, and just kind of be a part of that. But yeah, we we could that's a good idea. We could do some more things here to to do that.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

I was gonna I was gonna make the joke. Oh, so Alan, you're not saying have a 9 30 staff meeting on Monday. Because for me, like that is stressful, and it is kind of like the opposite of of because sometimes we do bring in our anxiety from the weekend, and then we just kind of I don't know if it's healthy or not unhealthy, but like it feels like it's not the healthiest way to process sometimes. And so um we've been talking about this, we're still working on something that's a better way to do it, but like that's why I'm like maybe a different day, Tuesday, gives us a buffer to kind of realize what matters, what doesn't matter, and then we can talk about it in a healthy way. Breakfast on Monday would be good, yeah, and then an actual meeting in the next I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Because like during the course of the day on Sunday, you know something may happen. And and the first thing in my mind is can't wait to talk about this in Monday staff meeting, you know? And that should not be the way that we and I know everyone is doing that. They're like, I can't wait to talk about this in the staff meeting, you know. Right. But yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

We do we do staff meeting on Tuesday, but I I really do like the idea of doing breakfast somewhere outside the church walls for a staff meeting. That that would be cool. And maybe there's a less temptation to gripe if it's in a more public setting where other people are witnessing how a church staff functions uh together. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

That's so true. That is so true.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

That might be a good thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Might be.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Although with my personality, I don't know that that would help. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

The waitress to be like, when are we burning it down? I'm coming with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

No, no. So no, that's good stuff, man. Well, we got another question for you. Um, in a world where parents can find better entertainment, so this is something me and Rick have talked about recently. Like, this is one of the reasons why it was um a time for maybe me to go into uh preaching ministry, um, which I don't really like the term preaching minister because I don't I I feel like I do more than that. Like I like going out and meeting people, I'm very relational. But unfortunately, we we live in the social media entertainment uh culture today. So the way we youth ministered yesterday or when we first began, you can't do it that way anymore because of how our culture is changed. So there are things like parks and YouTube and and all of these things that that parents can do with their children. Why does youth ministry, particularly in our church, the church of Christ, why does that still matter? If we stripped away those trips, if we if we stripped away the vans and the pizza and and all of that that we've talked about, that we love so much, um, you know, what do we do that we just can't afford to let die? Um, you know, what why does coming to here, being a part of this still matter?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Well, it it probably won't surprise you guys that the answer to this question, I think, kind of echoes a little bit my answer to the first question. I think at the end of the day, it comes down to relationships. I man, I I know kids are drawn to some of the a TikToker that you know has uh a catchy, you know, quick uh sort of bit where he's talking about you know truths of the Bible and they're going really fast. They're talking about you know the Nephilim. Did you know this? Fun facts. I mean but but and that's uh great. But at the end of the day, uh, and the same thing with like theme parks and and these other things, at the end of the day, kids don't want to have a relationship with uh a Google page or uh, you know, they they don't they're they're starting to get wise to this idea of this doom scrolling is not good for them, it's not fulfilling. Like I love seeing that self-awareness from kids now that they're starting to see that in themselves of uh you know I will waste three hours on this and I do not feel good afterwards. Um I think at the end of the day, kids want relationship. Uh I think we're all wired that way, that we want to uh to be known. Uh we want to be able to love and be loved. Um and I I it's like it's like arguing for would you rather watch a campfire uh uh on a YouTube video, or would you rather be in front of a campfire? Like you may get uh be pleasing to hear the sounds of a crackling campfire, but to not actually be there to feel the warmth, to have the light on your face, like it's not good. It was it kind of felt that way a little bit during COVID when we were just so reliant on having to do worship uh virtually. I mean, everyone knew this is this cannot be a long-term solution because we are we are not getting that same warmth that we get from being there in front of the fire. Um and I mean at the end of the day, if your goal for your youth ministry is to try to outprogram the biggest and best that the world has to offer, man, it you you it's a lose-lose situation. Either you do really good at that, and that's all your youth ministry is, is just really good events and programs that are entertaining, uh, or you just realize that you're gonna call and come up short, and there's no way to keep up with everything the world is putting in in front of our kids. Uh, but either way, it it's it's futile. Like you are trying to win kids to a relationship, and not just with each other, but a relationship that that is under uh Christ that is bringing them to the cross. I there and I know you guys have experienced this. There's been so many times where uh a service project that seems like it's gonna be grueling and awful ends up being one of the most epic events that your kids remember. And they always have these fond memories of this thing that everything seemed to seem to go wrong at that at that event. You know, the the church van broke down or the air conditioning stopped working or whatever it was. But then it becomes like this bonding experience, kind of the shared trauma. If we went through this together and it was for a purpose, uh, and it was a good thing, it ends up being this memory-building thing. I remember we we took a group of kids to trek, and at the time I thought it was kind of uh kind of a bust because we I think we only got six kids to go, and I was hoping for at least three times that. And I thought, well, okay, we'll go ahead and do it. And then I was talking earlier about having a good core group. There were so many kids that were on that trip that just did not know each other well. And after we spent a week of sleeping on the ground and being outside, those kids were just tight as can be, and just the the relationships that continued on past that event, uh, it it was one of the best investments I've made into my youth group. It's just having this seemingly random group of kids, six kids, go on this trip together. Uh, and even though it wasn't I what I imagined it could have been, it ended up being such a good thing for our youth group because those kids ended up being just such a light for the rest of the group. Um, I feel like I'm getting away from the question, but uh, I think it all comes back to relationships. There, I just taught recently on the importance of you know community and doing uh I want to say doing life together. I feel like it's such a cliche, but the idea of that we're followers of the way and it's not meant to be a solo hike, right? We're meant to we're meant to follow Jesus together. And and there's this quote that's attributed to Tertullian, an early church father. I'm just trying to sound smart now, but he says, sous Christianis, nullis Christianis, uh, which means a Christian alone is no Christian. And man, I love that quote. It is so, so good. Just the idea of you are not meant to follow Christ by yourself. Like it is an intensely personal thing, but it is never meant to be an entirely private thing. Like you are meant to do this shoulder-shoulder with other people uh who are both showing you how to do it and keeping you accountable uh along the way, and just making sure that you that you are growing along the way. There is so much about following Christ that might actually be easier if you did it on your own, but there's so much about doing it with other people that is for our benefit. We were to learn how to love other people and go through these experiences together. And all that kind of comes back to what I think our student ministries are at their core. It is about relationship building, bringing them closer together as they uh walk shoulder to shoulder closer to Christ and are in relationship with Him. Um, to me, yeah, however much pizza you have, however many times you get to go to Six Flags, however many TikTokers you can put in front of them, that will not compare uh to the meaning behind then the fulfilling feeling I think that they'll they'll have uh of having a relationship together uh in the name of Christ. Um yeah sorry, that was longer than I thought it should have been. But go ahead. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

That was good. Um, I mean, I thought of some things I love technology, and I know Rick does. Rick's the tech guru for League Street. It's a great tool. It is a great tool, especially if we steward it the right way, which humanity does not always have um a reputation for doing. But that is one miscalculation, and I think technology has failed, is that we do have a need for relationship. I know there's Facebook and some of those things, but being on a computer screen and being together in the same room is a lot different. And that should not surprise us because when when you go all the way back to the beginning, what's one of the first things that God says about man? It's not good for them to be alone. Relationship was created into us. We we desire it even when we don't desire it. Even the the most introverted of introverted desire a relationship uh with somebody. You want to feel loved, you want to feel like you matter. Um, so we shouldn't be surprised that that that there's always going to be that need. And I thought of there's this commercial, so we've been watching me and my wife are really big into crime shows and things like that. And um, she particularly likes the ones where the wife murders the husband. I don't know, that's that's a joke. Um but uh flag, oh yeah. Um there's this one that we let our boys watch with us because it's it's it's like body cameras and they're chasing bad guys, and there's nothing bad about it, just kind of old-fashioned policing. And and my boys eat that up, man. And um, but every time there's an ad, so it's on AE, so there's ads. Every time there's an ad, there's this commercial that comes on for um what they're wanting. Um, it's like a vocational center where they want more um welders and and uh mechanics and the commercial, it's annoying my sons at this point, but they couldn't quote it verbatim, but it'll say, AI, change this tire. AI, weld this pipe. And the whole time I'm thinking they're creating robots for that. But but I understand their point. Like, like there are some things, especially right now, that technology or or those entertainment things, and I know we're picking on technology, but it's the most prevalent in my opinion, that they cannot replace. And and I I 100% agreement that a relationship is one of them.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

Yeah, I wanna excuse me, I want to pivot to a another like a follow-up question on that relationship thing. Uh also so we don't pick on technology anymore because it kind of hurts. But no. Um so when it comes to relationships with students, uh what what advice do you have about balancing the appearance of having favorites? Um, because obviously you're gonna connect with some students more than others. That's just because you're a human. We're all humans, but it's important that we don't look like we're having favorites, you know? So what are your what are your thoughts on that and how have you approached that in the past?

SPEAKER_01 39:48

I don't know that I would have called that a pivot. That was like a total 180.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

I mean, his answer was relationships. That's true, that's true, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

That is true, that is true.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

That is true.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

I'm with you, and I think you're right. I think it is natural to have favorites. I I don't know if I completely agree with your premise of the idea that it's important to hide that. I I well when I think about, of course, I'm gonna go to Jesus and the disciples, when I think about uh Peter, James, and John and and the guys that he spent more time with, I don't think he was very intentional about hiding that from the other disciples. Um I think them reading some and being like, what I knew it! The one Jesus loved. I thought it was me. I think it's important where yeah, you are trying to balance your time well when it is, you know, time before class and after class that you know there's certain kids don't have a monopoly uh on all your time. I think that's really important that you are trying to spread spread that as best you can. But at the same time, like if we're trying to be intentional about getting other adults into our student ministries, whether that be parent volunteers or other young adult volunteers, I think the goal on that is that there will be other personalities in the room that these kids can also, you know, be favorites of and be attached to. I think the the reality is always gonna be you are gonna have more things in common with other kids. Like I I do like to uh we'll use uh disc golf. I do like to go play disc golf. And so typically the boys in my youth group that want to go do that, I'm spending more time with them because we go do that. And I don't think that's necessarily something to hide in front of your your youth group. I I think that is something to to celebrate that relationships can get closer and they can form outside of youth group all the while while you're trying to make sure people don't feel like they just have no access point to get deeper with any kind of meaningful relationship with someone older than them. Um so yeah, it it you need to be thoughtful of being too exclusive in um in the times where you're with your youth group and you're all together. Uh, but at the same time, I I just I don't know if it's uh good or healthy to try to uh hide that there are are people that you get along with better in your youth group. Uh I think that's natural and it's gonna happen. Uh yeah, uh and I'm not sure that there should be apologies for that.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

What if we framed it this way? Because like um I'll I'll be honest, I had favorites, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hide it. Um and and and and this is kind of twofold, but um my favorites also were the ones that were more likely to invite their friends because they whether they realize it or not, there was this um um natural, I mean they they know they wanted their friends to experience what they were experiencing, yeah. And then also your your favorites, if if that's the word we want to use, they're they are like what I was saying, they're often the more uh evangelistic of the group. They want to invite people, they want people to be involved. They man, come come hang out with my youth minister. Um, and because they want their friends to experience what they're experiencing. So if you uh steward that, and that's kind of been our theme word today, I guess. If you steward that the right way, it can be an advantage. Now I remember, so as a young guy, it is natural for us being men to maybe have those closer relations relationships, especially when we're younger, to the boys in the class. And and I remember one time I had girls specifically call me out for it in front of everybody in the group, you're always doing stuff with the boys. I was like, so me just kind of from a pride standpoint and like a gotcha moment, I was like, Oh yeah, well, next week I'm taking all of y'all to get pedicures. And we did, and they loved it. So you can find ways to um mesh with the ones that maybe you don't mesh naturally or don't have the most organic connection with. Um, but uh whether we want to try to steer away from or not, it's uh there's no way to avoid it. Your your personality is just going to mesh better with uh the personalities that are are like yours. I mean, yeah, I can only speak from experience, like the kids that were into sports, I naturally uh gravitated toward the ones who were into fishing and trunk uh hunting, I naturally gravitated more to them. And and Rick is gonna you're gonna gravitate toward the ones that like Star Wars or Hockey, or um Bless Rick's Artie's been trying to introduce hockey to this church for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

There's actually some claims hockey fans.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

You are that's that's true, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 44:09

I I was gonna say, um man, so I've had a lot of youth ministers growing up, went to big churches and all that, and uh there was a season where my wife and I both were at the same church, same youth group, and we felt like we were not in that group, and that there was a very clear group of of favorites, and like that that hurt, and it caused a lot of baggage for her, especially. Uh this she's open about this, this isn't private, but um so like I'm always wrestling with that. Like who is the person that I'm missing? And I I can't say I've done a great job of that because sometimes I'm oblivious to anything not directly in front of me. Uh but yeah, I I think it's a conversation we need to keep having, and you guys I think have had a good answer. I think there's a there's a concern if if you're somebody maybe super immature and you're doing youth ministry for yourself, which is a it's a uh temptation, you know, to to get a personality-driven model. Yeah, yeah. I've never been the cool kid, but now everyone's looking to me like that kind of thing. Yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think you just gotta keep looking for the people who need you in that moment. And sometimes you might even neglect the favorites because you know they get you somewhere else. Yeah. Uh neglect's the wrong word. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just organic conversation here now.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

No, but it's good. That's a really good question. I love that, Rick.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

We call this therapy time with Rick. Okay. No, I mean, I think it's like as youth ministry, there there's no doubt the kids are gonna notice. Like, I just gave you the story of the girls, and and I'm close to a lot of those girls, even before that, but it just made me look at it from uh, okay, this is a generality thing. I am doing more with the boys. Um, so it got me to woke up, but I always encouraged kids to, hey, if you don't feel like I'm giving you enough time, or I could, or if you want me to go lift weights with you because you've seen me go fishing with this one, or um come eat lunch with you more often, tell me. Like don't pull me aside or or call me out in front of the group, I don't care. But I I need to know if if there are some areas that, and that can be a humbling thing to say in front of your class, like, hey, if you don't ever feel like I'm giving you the right time, I want you to come tell me. And and um because it it is easy, um, because having those uh quote unquote favorites, it does make youth ministry feel easier on the days where it's been hard too. Um that you know, like, man, I had a tough day today, but I get to see my kids and so and so, and but uh I hate that it happened to you, right? I grew up without a youth minister. I was a small church, but we always had like 25 kids for a church of a hundred in our youth group. But um, so my my youth ministry thing was not because I watched yeah all these guys ahead of me. So I just never I guess I never got to experience that that what I've probably done as a youth minister too. So I or my thought process we framed differently.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

Yeah. Uh another sorry, real quick story. Uh no, you're good. Oh, are we so the I we remember have we have having a kid in our youth group who was really big into Dungeons and Dragons, and he bless his heart, not to give into stereotypes. He was one of those kids where it was he was kind of always on the outside looking in, and you could tell he was kind of yeah, he was kind of upset that that's where he that was his lot in life to was to be a kind of the oddball. But so one time I'm just talking to him and he said, Man, I wish there were more kids in the youth group that wanted to play Dungeons and Dragons. And I told him, I was like, I've never played, man. If you want to do like a one shot, I will, I will get a group together and we'll we'll play. And he said, Okay. And so because I did have a group of favorites, uh, I was able to leverage that group and say, Hey guys, I really want to lift this kid up. He feels like he's on the outside. Yeah, let's go play Dungeons and Dragons with him. Like none of them had ever played before. And so this group of like five or six kids came and played Dungeons and Dragons just for one, it was for like three hours. So we were we were involved. Uh, but we played and it was good. It we it was it was a really good time because the this group that already had this camaraderie was able to bring that energy to this and make that kid really feel seen. And that was such a that was such a good experience. And I I don't know what the point that I'm trying to make other than if you steward those relationships well, you can uh you can invest in these kids to do some powerful things in your youth group. Um and a lot of times let them be ministry multipliers uh for you. And that's that's such a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

That's what it's all about. I mean they the core group, if that's that's probably the word we need to be using, that core group is they're going to be more willing to stand out even in the awkward. They're they're gonna be more willing to say, yeah, let's try that. Yeah. Um, than maybe the quiet ones, you know. Um, but man, I love that. That's a great story. I mean, that's a perfect way to get youth group to build relationships. And those kids, if I was betting, probably I mean, they've probably heard of Dungeons and Dragons, but never even played it before. Yeah. So it's kind of like Rick's what's that Star Wars game, yeah? Star Wars Armada. Armada. I'd never even heard of that until him and another guy that used to go here had like a total nerd session about it for like five hours. It takes a long time.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

I bet Rick knows about a hundred games I've never heard of before.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

That's so true. That's so true. Right. Maybe we just need to get together and play all of them. Teach me how to play Armada. Uh I don't think you have enough frame power. I'm joking.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Wow. What'd be abuse, I think? I'm obviously not Rick's favorite.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

No. But you would play with the nuts as guy.

SPEAKER_00 49:32

It's a word that you're on the outside in your youth group, Rick.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

Yeah. I I joked that up with that game and it uses 100% of my brain, and my I'm so brain dead afterwards. So I can absolutely play with you. You'll do great. So I'll just crush you.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

That's okay. And I want a game that recharges me. I don't want a game that's gonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

No, like that is not the game then, because it's not all of your your brain strength. So anyway. All right. Um so the future of the church. So it's said often the future of the church is the youth in our our class, in our youth rooms. Uh, that's a lot of weight for a 16-year-old to bear. Um, as you look at the landscape of the churches of Christ, what we're doing, what is one old way of doing youth ministry that we need to just let burn out so that a healthier, more sustainable future can actually grow in our youth ministries?

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Yeah, my my when I read that question, my very first reaction was stop calling them the future of the church. Like we we've heard this saying before, but let them be the future, let them be the church of today. Um, man, it is that it seems like a throwaway line, but it is really true. Like the idea that we're gonna practice keychain leadership, not only in our in our ministries, but also in the larger church, that we're actually gonna put teens in charge of things that matter. I I think that is so such a good thing. It's not only an encouragement for older people to see, but that is life-giving to those teams where they say, I can I can belong to a church that sees these things in me and is using my abilities, even at this age, uh, and having that investment start at such a young age, I think will pay dividends as they grow older. Just knowing that they were being given responsibilities uh and again, they feel seen for the things that they're able to do. And this goes for any team, any any team that you have in youth group, regardless of ability level, there is some place that they can be plugged in uh that is often relegated to just adults, whether that's part of your your greedy ministry or up in the A V booth or uh you know, uh a service project of actually painting areas of the church that people actually see. I mean, there's so many things that we're like are untouchable to us of this is gonna be an adult job and this is what adults are gonna do. And then having teens that are like dedicated to your coffee ministry at your church is such a good thing and such a good message to give people that are coming to visit your church. Um, so the idea of keychain leadership, just giving the giving the keys uh to kids and let them uh make some decisions uh and really don't let just be an adage, don't let it just be a cliche saying, actually let them be the church of today, actually let them participate in the church, uh the church culture and the church uh responsibilities that are required today. I think that's such a good thing. Yeah, um, I think there's there's so many times we have like the special service where it's like, oh, this is the teen-led service, and so it's gonna be one Sunday where the teens are doing everything. And I while I I love the intent behind that, I I feel like it's antithetical to what we're trying to do. We we're trying to make them part of the church, like a normal church that's happening all the time. That that is a good thing. Um, so that was the first uh thought that came to mind. Immediately the second thought that came to mind was lock-ins. Lock-ins need to die, a terrible death, and should be Amen. Amen. No argument. I'm saying this uh with the knowledge of we're actually having a lock-in this weekend, and I keep I'm like, why are we doing this? But the kids will harangue me for months and months, and then you know, we put the sign-up list out, and we get, you know, almost immediately 30 kids sign up. And I'm like, okay, I guess they really want this.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

I mean, anyways, I know I'm joking. I do see the benefit of like having that compressed time together, you know, where maybe you don't have time for a retreat or this week-long camp where they're getting they're getting all that time together. So this is a way to have a time where they're literally spending 12 hours together that whole time in the church building. That seems like a win.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

But golly, there's well, I think it's a lot easier when you're 25 and not 38 or 9.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yeah, we're having trouble with getting uh parents to volunteer for this lock-in for some reason. Oh, yeah, I wonder why.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

I last time I did a lock-in last couple times, which I hate them as well. I successfully avoided them for like eight years. Uh then I came here and then he demanded them. But uh I I will okay, this is this is probably I just don't know if I should confess to this on the air or not, but uh here we go. I will add in spiritual components because I want it to be meaningful, yeah, yeah, but also somewhat to discourage them from having another lock in. Like if they don't like it, like I'm not trying to make it boring.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

There it was. But like I was waiting for the hammer to drop.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

If they know that it's not just gonna be a goofy time to play, then maybe they won't want it as much. And I want it to be meaningful, I want it to have purpose, and so I I try to add in some things, and it's gone really well. And they still like lock ins, unfortunately. So I guess it wasn't boring.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Yeah. I still remember the very first lock-in I ever did. I wanted the spiritual aspect before because I was like, I could have fun all night, I could play NCAA football with the guys all night, but we need to do something. So I started this midnight Devo thing, like midnight outside, under the moon. Um, we're gonna sing, have a little quick lesson. And to my shock, that ended up becoming like their favorite thing to look forward to during uh a lock-in. It was I didn't have to ever tell them to get off the games or pause the movie, or they just looked forward to that. So um, God's got a great sense of humor when it comes to that stuff. But appreciate the honesty. Yeah. You'll like what you're like. So, Rick, like the one of the lock-ins he had when I first got here, he's like, Hey, you want to help me with the lock-in? I was like, Nope, but I'll come cook for you in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Yeah, that's a bust. That's actually our our men's ministry is doing that. They're cooking breakfast for us uh at the end of the lock-in. I was like, Oh, that's a that's a win. That's a good thing. I wish I was just doing that.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

You know, that's one thing I have noticed about here at Leak Street that I didn't always have great parent help when I was a youth minister. Um, I did have there's all you know, we talk about core kids, and there are core parents too. We have those one or two moms or dads that will do everything. And I'm telling you, I would not have been as successful as I perceive I was without those individuals, um, those three or four just that were in the mix all the time. But um here at League Street, like I feel like you ask for um help from lock-ins or whatever it is, I I feel like we get a good response. But I'm looking kind of from the outside in, but at least for the lock ins. See, but when I cooked, there were several parents here, like tag and all of them were tag is a trooper. Tag is one of the yeah, tag was.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

I love tag. Even Ellen knows tags.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Yeah, who doesn't know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is like the salt of the earth in my opinion. He is, man. But uh, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's lock-ins. Oh god. Yep, yep. So glad I'm in the pulpit.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

What what else would you guys erase from the old way of doing youth ministry?

SPEAKER_01 56:25

You know, that's something that I have not thought about in a long time, just because I've been doing what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 56:31

Um I this is probably a bigger thing than youth ministry. It has to do with the church culture as a whole. But I don't think of what I want to say here. I I I don't like how there's things that we do in our youth groups that that we wouldn't do with the church as a whole. Um and I don't think what we're doing in youth group is wrong. And so I think it's we need to have the conversations about what really matters. I feel like the church as at all as a whole tends to accommodate uh the conservative traditional views, and I think that's damaging the future of the church um to an extent.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

So you're talking about Sister Ethel not going down the slip and slide or Yeah, it's it's always Sister Ethel.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

Um but no, just we need to have the conversations too. And we don't we don't do a good job explaining why we do things the way we do, or why we've arrived at decisions and stuff like that. And so you know, it feels like we raise our students in the youth group where we have a lot more freedom. We sometimes operate like a separate church, which is not good. And then they graduate and go to the the big church for the first time. Adult church, right? And and they're like, Well, this is boring, or this is so old fashioned or backwards, or how come we did this this way but not this way? And like that's been um I mean it hasn't happened all that much, but there there is a disconnect. And usually the kids go to a Sunday class and then say for worship, so like they they know what's coming, but I've had a few who've asked me, like, why? Why is it so different? And that that's bothersome that there is a disconnect.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

I mean, I'm not naive to think that like my way is the best way, because I know what works for me may not work for the next guy. So one thing I would change about the culture and how we interact with our youth is when it comes to the scripture, is this is something that me and Rick have been talking about and I've become very passionate about, but we have to at some point decide this is more than knowledge. I think the church, church's history has been all about memorization and reciting verses and not how to live those verses. LTC. Um I didn't say that, didn't say that. Um, but that that is something I would change about the culture and and work with youth ministers more, especially the younger ones. Um, because I know Rick personally now, not as well as you do, but I get to work with him, and I know that his whole stick as a youth minister wasn't just like let's go verse by verse and not bring any context or application to it. And you know, let's read the Bible five times a year. Like, yeah, read your Bible five times. I said this in Sermon Sunday. Yeah, that's great. You read your Bible five times a year, but what did you understand about what you read? And so we get these kids that come out of youth group that, yeah, they can quote the passages like Philippians 4 13 and Proverbs 3, 5 through 6, but they don't have any clue on what they mean or how they apply to their life. That's the thing I would change our study culture in the church to yes, we want biblical knowledge, but we also want biblical understanding to come along with it. And and it's more than just reading the black and red words on the page. There's a whole another thing buried underneath those things that we have to teach our kids to search for and long for um to become better children of God as they as they get older. But yeah, but yeah, that's that's the one thing that comes to mind, whether that answers the question or not. But it's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

No, that's really well said. I I've I've become more and more convicted as of late, just the idea of discipleship. What what does that mean? Uh just identifying the gap of knowing and doing. Like it is one thing to know about your faith, and it is another thing to be a practitioner of your faith, to be a walker of the way, to be a follower of Jesus. And I I think our kids need to hear that because I think sometimes they do get to big church, and it feels like a lot of people that are just consuming information, and that is that is what they're there for. And uh man, that is that is a dangerous thing. But on a on a bright note, I have found our church to be, well, I'll give Wednesday nights as an example. Wednesday nights pre-COVID were very much like uh Sunday morning. It was kind of wrote, this is the the format of what we do. And then post-COVID, it feels like there was a little bit more freedom of what we do on Wednesday nights. There's a little bit more flexibility to the point where like some of these prayer station nights I would set up for the teens, we started trying doing that for the adults as well and just making a church-wide prayer station night. And there's been a lot of, I think, just openness to that in our adults. I think there is a lot of maybe it's a missing of youth group days where we were able to do some more of these um, I don't want to say performative, just more hands-on, experiential, sort of oriented things on our on our gathering times. And I've taken that as a good sign that there is an openness to that of doing things more than just a uh a monologue from a teacher. And that's that's been good.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I grew up in the church, but it is so different, you know, a year almost 40 of life than it was early on when I can remember the church has come so far, and I'm grateful for that. And they're going in the right direction and um a little more open to just more than, well, this is how we've done it for a hundred years. And and that's yep, that's a good thing to progress. I mean, you can't to literally have a relationship with Jesus, you have to change. And so, what makes the church think that we shouldn't have to do that together as well? Yeah. So, but yeah, well said, well said.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:09

Hey, we are running out of time, so I'm gonna have to cut it short. I know, like all right. I enjoyed this. It's gone by so fast. Love it. We can keep talking afterwards, but um, Alan, thanks for for being on the show, man. You have so much wisdom and some great conversations. So we'll get you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

Really good conversation. Thank you, Rick. Thank you, Josh. You guys are doing great work. Thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

Look forward to building our relationship together going forward in this East Texas area. Let's go East Texas.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

Some would say Northeast Texas, some would say Northeast Texas. All right, man. See you, Alan. See you, brother. Thank you guys. See ya. See ya.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:47

Man, that was a good good talk with with Alan. He's a good one. He knows a lot. I always learn from him, but at the same time, he doesn't, he's he's he's cool, you know, like he's not a jerk or super arrogant. He's he's just talking to you like a person. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

I I have really enjoyed these youth ministry episodes. Like I know I'm a preacher now, but I still have a love for youth ministry. Um, and I I wish we could keep going. I wish we could have another episode. Um, there's so much there. Um and not to say that devalue any other kind of ministry, but there's just so much in youth ministry. And whether we want to believe it or not, they're the most um active probably of the ministry world um because organically they have to be when when you have active uh kids that you're teenagers that you're a part of their lives and different things, but yeah, today was great. There was some things said that I was just like, yes, preach.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

Uh I felt like I was in the lesson.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

Yeah. So that's good. I, you know, I'm still thinking about um, you know, is youth ministry, the church of the future, or the church of the now. Yep. And it is, it's both, you know, absolutely we undervalue, I think, teenagers and we need to put them to work in a good way, use their gifts and talents, help them to find the places they belong. Yeah, but it's also an investment in the future. Yeah, it is saying we see you as important, and so we're going to help shape your faith for not just your future, but for the futures that come after you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

That's really cool. I, you know, and I think here, you know, everyone knows that we're ministers here at League Street Church Christ, and I think we do a fairly good job of including them. Now, there obviously there are some areas where we could include them more, but I was just thinking, you know, one of our boys, I think in the last three weeks, two of our high school boys have been the ones to do the prayer. And man, they do a phenomenal job. And they say some prayers that I'm gonna be honest are better than some grown men that I hear. And so they have something to offer. Um, and and and for those of you don't know, Rick is uh our technology guy. He's more than just you know engagement and working with our young adult sector, but um, he does a really good job of getting our kids back in the media booth. And so we have because we're doing lives and audio and video, uh, and what else do we do? Oh, the clicker for the songs. On any given Sunday, you can look back there and there are three to four teenagers running that thing, and they can do it without him. And so that's another way they can get plugged in um and and learn their spot. But I do agree that it's we gotta quit looking at it as the church of the future. They're the church of right now. Yep. Today. Yeah, like they are they're here, they're they're part, most of them they've been baptized, they're part of the kingdom. Yeah, and and so there's no tomorrow, there's today, you know. So um, but uh but I understand the kind of the cultural influence there of you know training up the next generation as well, but um, and spiritual influence. So um, but uh, but yeah, I think uh that was that was that was great. I mean, I was I was hooked in on that stuff. So um I felt like today I was just um I caught myself daydreaming almost, like looking back on And this I did this last week, our last episode too, where I was like looking back on my youth ministry years thinking I hope I got that right. Did I get that right? I could have done better there. I should have toned it down here. Like um this is this has been awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:14

Just a reminder, I mean and that that side it's a reminder that we're people too and we make mistakes, and hey, while while we're doing this, we'll say we're sorry if we've ever made someone who's watching feel like they weren't included or valued, like not our goal, not our intention. There's just a lot to to manage and we're short-sighted sometimes. But it definitely this conversation today helped me just re uh retune how important relationships are and to I hope that I do a better job of paying attention to people.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:44

Yeah, absolutely. So what else?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:46

Anything else you want to say?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:48

Yeah, man, I've just really enjoyed these last couple episodes on on youth ministry, kind of brought me back, like I was saying, and and I really enjoyed it. And and I hope that you know, if guys are listening, and whether you've been in you are in youth ministry for the first time or you've been doing it a lot, I hope you were able to gain some wisdom just from the conversation uh that was had and and the things that were brought up. And I thought there's some valuable stuff there. There's some things there that I wished I would have uh heard when when I was new into this thing, and but I'm glad to be hearing it now. For sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:21

Well, again, thanks Alan for being on the show. Yeah. Thank you guys for listening. Um we're halfway done with this first season. We got more good stuff coming. Uh, but as always, you know, we we want to hear your thoughts, your ideas, your feedback. Um, and so there's ways to do that that you'll hear about at the end of the show. But um, yeah, don't let the bur the bush burn out.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

That's right. Don't let it burn out. Yeah. We do have some kind of cool voice that says in there, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:49

We'll get Brian Miller in here because he's got that announcer voice.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

Yes, everyone needs to be introduced to Brian Miller. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:54

Alrighty. Well, that's it for today. We'll see you in a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

All right, see ya. Thanks. And with that, we've come to the end of another fiery episode of the Burning Out Bush. We hope today's discussion sparked some thoughts and maybe even a little bit of inspiration for you. Before you go and tend to your own metaphorical bushfire, we've got a few small requests. Subscribe. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that subscribe or follow button on your podcast platform of choice. It ensures you never miss a spark from us. Leave us a review. The five-star review goes a long way in helping other folks find our little corner of the podcast world. Take a moment to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And also, we want you to stay connected. You can follow the latest flare-ups and announcements by following us on social media, finding us on all platforms, searching for the burning out bush. Do you have a burning secret, a professional meltdown, or a story about truly hitting rock bottom that you want to share? Well, we want to hear it. Fill out our totally anonymous form, and your story might be featured in a future segment where we read and discuss listener submitted workplace woes and career cataclysms. Find the form here at theburningoutbush.com. Thank you for listening. We'll catch you next time when we fire up a whole new conversation on the Burning Out Bush.