SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Burning Out Bush podcast. As always, I am one of your hosts, Josh Moyer, and this is Hey, I'm Rick Grace.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Good to be with you.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Yes, the second in command. We are incredibly excited for this episode today, and we hope that you are too. We're going to talk about a subject that unfortunately, or I don't know how you look at it, but it's something that we all deal with being a part of the church. And um we wanted someone to come along on this journey with us as we talk about that. So we have a very special guest with us. He's going to join us right off the bat. No, no kind of going in and out. But Phil Brookman from Memorial Road Church Christ in Oklahoma City is with us, and we are so happy you are here. He's starting off the episode with us. So he's he's listening to all this stuff. So he's probably thinking, What did I get myself into? But uh man, Phil, we are so incredibly thankful that you chose to be on here uh with us this this day, man. So we really, really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

So um wait, we're talking about church hurt. I thought we were talking about shirt, like t-shirt.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Yeah, yeah. Oh no. So I hope you're ready. We we uh we're gonna we're gonna get into some interesting questions today, and it's gonna make for a really good uh topic of discussion, I believe. So although church search is a good topic too. I'm thinking like Sunday cool, they're kind of high up there, but that's right. Hey, we're we're getting such with the times. We actually found um some pullovers laying around here at the church, and we got the League Street logo on them. And so we actually do have some church shirts.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Yeah, I don't know. Apparently, our youth minister got his from the clothing room, yes, which is pretty funny. That's very on brand.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

So we yeah, we hired a youth minister, shout out Nathan Dillinger, and um, of course, you know guys that are green as grass, they come in and they're wearing crocs, short shorts, and a t-shirt. And uh we're looking at him like, all right, buddy, it's time to dress you like a minister. So instead of buying clothes like normal people does, he just went through our clothing room and found some things with collars on. That's kind of funny. So beautiful. It was it was good stuff. But uh, Phil, tell us about yourself, where are you from? I just I mentioned that you're at Memorial Road, but you can go in a little deeper on that if you want. Um, and kind of give us your how'd you get into ministry journey uh thing, since that's what we really talk about on the show is just our ministry journeys and what we face. So yeah, take it away, brother.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

So I've been in ministry 20 years uh at the Memorial Road Church of Christ, and the first seven of that was youth ministry, and I still love youth ministry. I never necessarily uh wanted to get out of that. But um, 13 years ago, the guy that was the preacher at my church, he still loved ministry, but he was a little burned out of the preaching part. And um, so they the elders made a uh kind of took his role and created two positions out of it the executive minister, and then they were were looking to hire a young guy to come preach alongside, and and uh so that was me. And so I started doing that 13 uh years ago. So there's yeah, like all ministers, there's been really great stories of wonderful things God is doing and lots of hard things along the way. And but I still feel committed to the call to to preach the gospel and to love the church. As far as how I got into it, I've I've got one of those very simple but a little odd stories. I I'm 15 years old at somebody's house for uh like a Wednesday night Bible study. Don't remember the topic, don't remember the teacher. But I walk out uh of the house, look up at the sky, and I get this overwhelming sense uh from the Lord that I am going to be a minister. I remember it as clear as day. So that I didn't know what kind or how long or anything like that, but I just because before that day I wanted to be an architect, and but something changed in my heart that day, and so I just decided I'm gonna go go into ministry. And I I didn't really have any skills, I didn't have a lot of knowledge. I just knew that I did I thought the Bible was really interesting, and I did I loved people, and so I went into college with no plan B and I I started out in youth ministry and then been preaching ever since.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

That's awesome, that is awesome. So you had that title, executive minister. Oh and I thought uh I thought Rick's probably gonna make a joke about this because every single day we come to work and he goes, Hello, executive global senior pastor. That's what he calls me all the time. Well he acts like he's gonna get the title. So so I kind of when you said that he got the executive minister, I was like, uh, I like to mess with Rick, but man, that's that's awesome. I I gotta tell you, um, of course, everyone that's a part of the church is most are gonna know who you are. You know, you're um you're you're in front of everyone, even beyond Memorial Road. But um man, I have always just loved your preaching style. You are a mind-bending machine. And every time I listen to you, I'm like, man, I have like I I come with passion and stuff, but man, I just love the the just the kind of deep twists and turns. Like listening to some of your lessons is like those movies that um you know something crazy is getting ready to happen, but you just can't imagine the twist, and you always twist it in such a way you're like it's like you heisted my mind or something. So I've always appreciated that the the way that you speak is just amazing. But I do have a story about Phil. Uh oh. I do. So this is how me and Phil kind of um met for the first time. Um, I'm preaching my first preaching job in Oklahoma, Holdenville, Oklahoma. And shout out Holdenville, miss you guys a lot. And um, you know, in small church culture, you're kind of used to getting guys around the area that'll come and do little um area wide team gatherings, or you know, we call them Netsus Days here in in east northeast Texas. But um, I thought, man, you know what? I'm just we we hear the same guys over and over. And so I thought, who could I just call that I don't know, that I I want to just build a you know a rapport with, have a connection with, and and I had just got done watching a sermon that you've done you did somewhere. I don't think it was Memorial Road, but I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna reach out to this guy and see what happens. And I'm thinking, you know, I'm in Holdenville, Oklahoma. We're not gonna have but maybe uh 80, 90, 100 teenagers there for this area wide, but I'm gonna I'm gonna find out. And I can't remember how, but we got in connection and I was like, do you want to come to Holdenville and do an area wide for a bunch of country kids? And to my surprise, Phil said yes. And I that has always been um just a great moment. Like I I thought, man, this is really cool that because sometimes like in the church, and I I don't know if you guys agree with this, but some when you're a part of something that is perceived to be, you know, big, and Memorial Road's fairly good sized church, right? Um, you're like, man, do they just but Phil's always been humble, and I I really appreciate that about you. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. So uh I remember patronizing this morning.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Uh my so my dad grew up in western Oklahoma, and then he worked his whole career for the OSBI, the Oklahoma State Bureau Investigation. Yeah, and a lot of what he did is he just he just drove around the state investigating crime labs and all sorts of interesting things, but he came to really, really like uh just going to different counties in Oklahoma. Like he he prides himself, like he doesn't need any GPS, nothing. He just knows he knows the state. And so he got to come along with me for for that. And he was so excited just as we drove out through all the counties, he was telling me all these stories. So it was it was a big blessing to me too to get to come do that.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

It was it was I remember your dad being there, that was really, really cool. And man, I I'll tell you, it's like I've noticed this like when my parents because they'll come to anywhere I've ever been, man. I I my first preaching stop was in Wyoming, and my parents would drive up there five times a year to come see us. But there's always that twinkle in your parents' eyes when they're watching you up in the pulpit. One, probably because if you're like they're like my dad, they're like, How in the world did I raise a preacher, you know? But but man, your dad, the way he was watching you, I I I kind of watched your dad as much as I was watching you that night. But uh anyway, but we're glad that you're here. Um you want to just jump right into it? Well, yeah, let's just jump into the topic of church hurt. Um, I suspect this might be our most watch once we post it because it is such a it's one of those topics.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

So Josh and I notoriously are bad cop, good cop a lot of times, and that might come out in this one as well. Um I mean, we're just very different people, which is one of our strengths as a team is we see things differently and work together well. But um, yeah, so church hurt is it's a loaded statement, uh loaded phrase, I guess, and people have a lot of different responses to it. Um so Phil, when when people say church hurt, what do you think they actually mean? And where do you think we sometimes misunderstand it?

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Well I I first want to qualify that I'm not an expert uh on this. It's my my knowledge base mainly comes from uh walking with people over the years that have experienced church hurt and learning. I've learned a lot um from their stories. Um so just just know that I'm not like the guru or anything, but I I do I mean I think church hurt is a a real phenomenon. I think it's not talked about enough. Uh quite a few people go through it. When when it comes to defining it, uh it does strike me as a pretty large umbrella word uh under which a lot of different variants and categories could emerge. I I almost equate it to maybe on the positive side of things, that you know, how generic the word love is in the English language. But when you dive into it in the Greek, it's like, oh wait, there's there's a lot more specificity of different kinds of love or the word uh trauma in you know, lately it's almost become overused. So I I heard an expert recently uh talking, she did this some study on it's a teenage culture study, and she learned that uh, at least with the group she studied, teenagers, their number one uh category by which they will define their identity to new people is mental health. So, you know, rather than uh, you know, stereotypically it might be, hey, I'm so-and-so and I play the flute, or hey, I'm so-and-so, and I run track, or you know, whatever, they primarily identify as I'm so-and-so and I'm bipolar, or I'm so-and-so, and I uh have anxiety and depression. And I can't remember the expert that was talking about this, but she said it's it's actually uh overall a very negative thing that this is happening for two reasons. Uh, one is it it really narrows the teenager's view of themselves uh to have this one very narrow lens by which they're viewing their whole humanity. That's not necessarily helpful. But then two, some of these teens are saying these things and they're not actually that, they're not really struggling with it. They just feel like they have to. And so that actually does a disservice to the the teenagers that are actually struggling with mental health. They're not getting the help they need because everybody's claiming that. So that's an aside to say I think there's something uh similar going on with church hurt where you know someone could um like the preacher didn't remember my name. Oh, that's church hurt. But then someone else, you know, uh, well, I I was sadly sexually abused by so-and-so in the children's wing 20 years ago. I'm just I'm just saying this generic story. Well, if both of those are identified as church hurt, wow, that that term needs much clearer definition. So I I think it's an umbrella word, it's absolutely real. We need to talk about it, but I think there are some helpful ways to bring clarity to the to the term.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Oh, I I absolutely agree. It is, he just said the word I was thinking it is very broad. I mean, it's but I I mean I guess as ministers too, we probably um see that broadness of it a little more than maybe your typical congregant or uh just because we're just exposed to kind of everyone's problems, you know. Um, but uh and I I will say uh Rick mentioned right off the bat that we are kind of yin and yang in this, and I typically am just being honest, I'm typically the rub some dirt on it kind of guy, and I I want to like polish my edges a little bit um on this. So this is gonna be I want you to polish your edges too. He wants me to polish my edges because um I don't know. I just we are we're kind of a product of you know what how we were raised and and and I came from the put some dirt on it culture, I guess, or that that time, if you will. And I was an only child. And he was an only child, so um take that for what it's worth, listeners or watchers. All right. So but no, I I agree with you, Rick.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

You got anything on it? Um, I think that's really good. Uh we almost need a new a new term or something to to separate or more more terms, um, but that's definitely the reality is there's so many people who come to the place of identifying or labeling themselves as being hurt by the church. And you know, we talked about this quite a bit, but personally, I want to hear people's stories, I want to engage with them and and have empathy. And even if it is, the preacher forgot my name, you know. And I mean, if we're being honest, I'm sure all of us could talk about times we've been hurt by people in the church, you know. Uh, and so not saying that it's okay, just saying that um, yeah, I mean, even the even this the simple stuff that's not that big of a deal, I think we need to address more, not in the sense of making it better necessarily. I mean, we we should, you know, let's learn people's names and not be jerk to each other. However, just uh recognizing that we're still human, you know, and if if we're expecting anybody in the church to be perfect, it's just not gonna happen. Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, no, you're you're exactly here I I actually have I'm sure other people have better lists than this, but I I have adopted some uh clarifying words just to know what are we really talking about. So the first distinction I think is important to make is there's a difference between church hurt and church irritation. So church irritation is it it is okay, the preacher from my forgot my name, or I got an email a few days ago from a there was a family that had was traveling and they came to church and no one greeted them. Uh, which is so you know, I hate that because we we try really hard. We're we're always talking to our members about you, you're the first you know, line of welcome for newcomers, but you know, it still happens. And so this person was not happy. Nobody greeted me, that's terrible. Okay, well that I wouldn't classify that as church hurt. That's yeah, I'd be irritated too. Or even even today, I was there's a there's a situation going on where I I don't see I d I I was someone else in leadership. Well, I'm irritated, but that's not church hurt. Whereas, you know, I have a friend that oh, maybe two years ago, he was telling me that his dad recently died, and I said, Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. And he said, Well, it's worse than that. He said, Before he died, his dad was a preacher. He said, I it came to light that when I was a child, my dad had actually um abused several kids at churches I was growing up at, and this all came to light, and then he died. And now I don't know how I feel about God, I don't know how I feel about the church, and everything is kind of up in arms in my own faith. And well, I I mean, I empathetically I I get that. Like if someone that close to you, your dad, did something that that was that harmful, that is legitimate uh church hurt. Um I have another friend who a few weeks ago he just moved here and he said that he had a preacher that uh had his baby was having some major surgery, and the preacher had called and said, I'm gonna be there to pray, and and the preacher didn't show up. And that's one thing. But but then as my my friend reached back out a few times to this preacher, and the preacher just kind of ghosted him. Yeah, that that's painful. Um, so I would think uh that's church hurt as well. And even to clarify terms even further, I think there's a difference between direct church hurt and indirect church hurt.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

So most of the examples I'm giving the recent, the ones I just gave, I would say that's direct church hurt. It's a someone in leadership has made a decision or said something or done something that directly harmed an individual.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

But there's also something that I would call indirect church hurt. And um that's when leadership at a church makes a decision that has this secondary effect on people that were not directly involved. So for example, um uh another friend of mine, again recently, it's so funny you have a lot so many stories of late, but he said he does not go to my uh uh congregation, but he said that his church recently announced an affair between the preacher and one of the administrative assistants, which was it's that's always devastating. It's never good, it's awful. But what made this complex is that this actually happened 18 months ago, but leadership at the time just covered it under the rug and didn't want to talk about it because they thought that was a good thing at the time, but then they realized later, wow, we probably should have been honest on the at the beginning. Well, because of that 18-month lag, my friend was so hurt because he's involved and he's sitting on committees and he's serving the church, and then he just feels like this sense of betrayal that why wouldn't, you know, why wouldn't leadership tell us about that? And so he just has a lot of hurt. So but I I would categorize that as indirect hurt. He's not the one that was directly involved in the affair, but because the church didn't communicate, he does feel hurt. So those are those are a few terms irritation, hurt, indirect, that might be helpful as we talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

I don't know why, but when you said irritations, I just started thinking about the differences in my head. What do you think the most profound, or like maybe that's the wrong word, what do you think the most like the irritation that we see the most as ministers that people think it's church hurt, but it's really irritation. I've got one in my mind. Misspellings in the bulletin. This must be like a small, a small church culture, but I have seen some people get outright like I'm going to leave if we don't start spell checking the bulletin. I'm like, what? Yeah. I'm not trying to make light, but I guess I am kind of making light of it because it's it's sometimes silly. It is silly. But but that's the people business.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

I'm always uh I'm uh I guess two for two of churches I've been at that have switched from pews to chairs. And that's always a headache and a dis discussion, and it's just like it doesn't matter at all. You know, and just stuff like that gets it's irritating to me, but I know that for some people it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah. So Holdenville, where I was where I was at before I came to League Street, we went from pews to chairs, and to my surprise, there was not one like not one person came to leadership or myself and said, Oh, how dare we not have pews, you know? Yeah. And I think it did help that we actually brought a chair in, sat in the back and was like, Hey, go test this chair out. Told him later why. So maybe ask for forgiveness instead of permission. But no, it was I was kind of shocked on that one. But yeah, that that can that can be something. Color of the carpet. Oh man, you just never know.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

You think it's a stereotype, but it's not. Like that actually is a thing sometimes. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Oh man. Well, I mean, one of my a consistent one for me is Phil, the scripture reference on slide 13 was one verse off. Oh no. What are we going to do?

SPEAKER_02 20:38

We're splitting the church. I I've got two ministers, an engagement and a youth minister that if I if there is like a letter off on my you're not so bad now at the beginning. But Nate, Nathan, our youth guy, will be like, Josh, you put the wrong, you put the wrong scripture up there. I'm like, oh gosh, I better, I better go get down on my hands and knees. And no, I and I've got a few, you know, a few widow ladies that they're they're the best, but they're the worst at that. They're like, hey, that that scripture, I don't know if it was, but and and he gets annoyed because I'm like, I'm a copy and paste guy. And he's like, you know, you can actually use the program, we'll insert the scripture for you. I'm like, no.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

So getting in the weeds there. Yeah, we're getting way too much. So Josh is my source of church hurt.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Um this is true. Um yeah, this is true. We're not gonna get into that. This is not therapy time with with with Rick today. That's another episode. That's another episode. Um Phil, in in your experience, you know, what tends to hurt people more? The um what happened to them or how the church responded to what happened afterwards? Because we kind of touched on that a little bit there. Um, but what do you think is m is more hurtful? What happened or how the church responded?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Well, I I mean both can be devastating. Uh I I don't know which one would be worse. Um I mean I guess maybe the the initial incident, but boy, the when the church doesn't respond well, it just it makes it way worse. And and my my personality is such I've had to really learn to um pay attention to this one more because my personality is more just relax, go with the flow, you're fine, don't worry about it. Uh but that that's actually not the best approach when a member shares something that's truly hurtful. Um I I sat through a training about a year ago. It's really interesting. So there um the training was based on this idea that a lot of churches have um you know good security measures in place for kids, whatever background checks or do stuff for your volunteers, and then similar for teenagers, but then it gets murky in like young adult world. So what you know, what what's an elder supposed to do if you know a 25-year-old girl says, um, you know, I went on a date with this guy, and things happened, and I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. Like what I was like, I don't know what to how how would I respond to that? And so in this training, what what we learned was um well, one step that really stuck out to me, which I remember, is um the presenter said that only 5% of reported sexual abuse claims end up being false. I don't know if that was a state thing or a national thing, but mainly just meaning when specifically when when women share something, yeah, it's real. Most often it's actually true. And so if if the listener's not um supporting that or investigating that, that can be very, very harmful. So one of the things that we learned in this seminar was boy, when when members share things, the what often what they do if they're nervous is they'll tell you about 20% of what happened because they want to see how you're gonna react. And if you're dismissive, like, oh yeah, that's just yep, that just happens, you're fine, suck it up, then they shut down. And so we were trained to just, well, tell me more about that and ask more questions. And then if if accusations are made or if you know, if if heavy things come to light, we're we need to take that seriously and and move it up the the org chart or get other people involved, just be very open and honest about some of these things because when we're not, when we're dismissive or oh, you're fine, you'll get over it. That's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

On the small front, we're just hurting people, but on the larger front, that's actually how you know you can get into legal issues, you can get sued for that. So it's super important to take um the claims of of members very seriously and ask questions and investigate.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

No, you're you're right. I think um elders, I mean, that's what we're gonna talk about because they're going, they're the spiritual overseers, they're you know, they're going to look out for the best interest of the congregation. You we would hope. Um, but I think perception is a key here because there are some times, and this is just me as a minister kind of peeling back the curtain, which we try to do in this podcast to the congregants. There are times where I feel like as a minister of the church that the elders are um responding well, um, but the perception to the person is they're not responding well because elders kind of this is gonna sound blasphemous, and I hope it doesn't, but elders kind of have this role where maybe they kind of experience in a way maybe how we treat God and that you know God's not doing it on our timing, and so we tend to project that on our leadership as well, like it's not being handled the way that I would do it, or the in the manner in which I would do it, or the timing. And that's not always the case. Like we had a a situation here recently where um a situation arose and a family got upset and they perceived that the elders were not handling it correctly. But from where I sat as a as a guy who get you know sits back and kind of gets a a different view than maybe the typical congregate, and as you do and and Rick does, like I thought they are handling this well because the the right thing to do is not always go supersonic speed into handling a situation. Sometimes the best thing to do is to slow down, consider all the outcomes, and go about it the way God would want us to, with love, um with intent and getting the you know the the story right and the facts right so that you can make a decision. But because it's not always handled in the speed or the way in which the you know, maybe the person who's experiencing this hurt um is going through, the perception is that they aren't, but sometimes they they are. Um, so I don't know. That's just a experience I've kind of run into as a preacher.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Yeah. Um so the original question about what hurts more the the hurt or the response. Yep. I was thinking about um like youth ministry, and when you're counseling a teenager, um their crises versus like adult crises are are so different. Um but you can't be like, so what, your girlfriend broke up with you, you know, like you'll be fine, just get over it. Because that problem to them is their world. And you know, and so like trying to meet people where they are, and I feel I like what you said about just listening, just engaging, engaging with them to to let them tell their story, and you don't have to necessarily um label it or affirm what they're well from what they're feeling, but not so much that it was heard or or not, but just just listen, be proactive, and that's really important. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

I got a question to kind of open Fandor's box a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Who do you think handles this better, adults or teenagers? And I'm not talking about like the real severe cases, but just you know, the moments of maybe it is irritation or maybe there is some legit church hurt, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

I feel like teenagers are are subjected to it more. Yeah. Um, and they stick around, sometimes they're forced to. Um I don't know. I've always said I heard this from somebody, but teenagers and adults struggle with the same problems, but teenagers are honest about it. And so I feel like um that that's the same. Like they'll talk about church art and get over it faster than adults will. I feel I mean, we're all former youth missors, we probably have a thought in our mind.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

I would just be honest, I would I would tend to I guess it depends on the person, but I would tend to lean towards our teenagers sometimes, just have a little tougher skin. Resiliency. Yeah, resiliency. That's probably the word. Yeah, I don't know. That's at least my take on it.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah. Well, let's keep moving. We're we've got a lot of questions here. Zamir, you. It's you. All right, cool. What do you think is the difference between legitimate church hurt and just unmet expectations or disagreements? We've kind of touched on this, but I don't know, let's elaborate a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah, I mean, I think some of this is what we covered, but maybe a different way to say it is that consumerism is a discipleship killer. Ooh. And so we can write that down.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

When members just get lost in I need everything to go my way, or it's gonna be a bad Sunday.

unknown 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

That's the there's a problem with your walk with Jesus there. Uh I the other day I was it was gonna have a heavy week. I had two funerals, and I was kind of in the thick of all the grief and just loving people and making phone calls and just in it. And I was in the hallway and some a member said hi to me. And I I guess we had a we have a new sign out by our building. And she like she said, Hey Phil, by the way, I cannot stand that new sign. And I just like I paused for the longest time. I was just dumbfounded because I didn't even have the mental capacity to think about a complaint like that. Uh I just like people are dying. Who cares? Like I just so and I I I've been in her situation before. I'm not trying to say I'm holier than thou, but I do more and more I've just come to believe that complaining is a habit, and we build these neuropathways and we're looking for things to go wrong, and we have this righteous indignation when we can tell someone about it. And yeah, I just think if if Christians are doing something, go serve, teach a kid's class, go to the homeless shelter, go visit people in nursing homes. You just you don't have quite as much energy to complain. So I definitely think some church hurt is simply complaining.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Uh but then obviously, as we've talked about, 100% some of it's legit. Oh, yeah. Absolutely, we talk about it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

All right, I gotta I gotta chase the the squirrel. Uh I think I'm uh okay, so maybe I'm slightly autistic. We haven't cited juries out, but sometimes I miss these social cues. And in that situation, Phil, somebody in the hallway has a complaint of something minor. Is there ever a place where you like either of y'all would address that then and there and be like, not get over it, but you know, try to tactfully encourage them to think differently, or is it always just gonna be uh move on, process and move on?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Man, that's such a good question. I so much of that to me is personality based. Like I'm more of a Barnabas than a Paul. Like I think Paul would have lit into her. I'm more of a Barnabas, so I just kind of I'm a head nodder, and yeah, okay. Sounds good. You have a good day too. So I I'm not the best at you know, the Matthew 18 kind of stuff. Through, you know, how do you work through the confrontation? I'm I'm pretty bad at that. I just I'm a head nodder.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Well what about you guys? How do you guys handle stuff like that?

SPEAKER_02 32:16

Oh, I am not a head nodder. I am confrontation. Like, I don't love to maneuver or settle in that tension, but I don't shy away from it. And it is a blessing and a curse. Like it it really is. And as I've gotten older, and I'm still terrible at it, but I have tried to like mentally in the moment just look at the whole picture. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail. But I've got a I've got, I'm not gonna tell you where I was or who it was, but I had this lady, and she would come to me every Sunday about something she was complaining about. I mean, it was like wearing on me. And I don't know why, because I'm not, you know, I always encourage people, like you know how it is, and you know how it is, like they want to come to the ministers before they go to the eldership, and that so I always try to redirect, right? Because it's not that I don't want to help them, but it's like I also want to help the elders kind of grow in this too. But every week it was the same, like complaining about something different. And finally one week she came up to me and she started complaining. I said, Can I have a hug? And man, she just like looked at me. And I I was shocking to her. I said, You come to me every week. Do you do you realize you've never told me good morning? You've never told me good evening, you've never told me it's nice to see you. Uh you you never talk to me about a relationship that I desire to have with you. But every time you come up to me, it's a complaint. And I gotta be honest, I don't want to know you that way. I I want to know you the way that scripture tells me that we should know each other. She never complained to me again. I mean, she gave me a hug. There was like a little you know how like people get a little emotional and their little lip starts to quiver. But that was it. She she never did it. And every time she would see me, she would give me a hug or um ask me how my week was going. And but it took a lot of time for me to get the courage for that, which was always weird to me because I'm not the one that I usually can just be like, hey, don't do that. Like, what are we trying to accomplish here, you know? And I I tend to have some a rough edge that way, but um, but yeah, just the the I didn't really I don't see it as standing up to her, but I it was more of a reframing right of her, like you know, Romans 12 changing the way that you think moment for her. And like it just totally uh kind of changed who she was, and I still love her to this day. She's an amazing woman. I know that if I called her today, she would be there. It totally changed our relationship. And and she's no longer seen as this woman who complains all the time. It it was just amazing. Interesting. But it was tough for some reason. I don't know. I was kind of scared of her, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Yeah, I think I'm probably just a head nodder as well. Yeah, because honestly, I was trying to think back and I haven't fielded a lot of complaints, and I wonder if it's because I know probably I just uh like uh nod my head and then completely flush it from my mind, right? Can't even recall them, but I don't know. Or I just haven't had any. Does that mean I'm just that good? Uh-huh. Okay, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

I I will say this as like an extroverted guy. I do desire what you guys have. Like I I do look at guys that are more of the head nodder, and I know that you guys have I have caused myself because of my kind of outgoingness, a lot of headaches that I could have probably avoided had I just nodded and walked away. But but then there have been times, like I just said, where it's been successful. So I just gotta figure out how to.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Now this is turning into therapy time with Josh. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

All right, I got another question here. I don't think this is on the list, but it's um in the same kind of conversation. Do we ever play the Uno reverse card? Kind of what you're saying. Like, you're hurt, but do you realize how you're hurting me? Like, ah, I don't know. Like, I I feel that, and I I don't know if I'm just this is my passive aggressive way of talking about it on the podcast and send it to people in face to face, but it's like, you know, like you said, we care so much about the church, we invest so much, it's like our our our baby, you know. And so when when someone says something critical, it hurts us. And I mean, talking about burning out as the overall theme kind of our podcast, that's something that that takes gas out of the tank. It is. I mean, it's something we need to do to make it make the church better, and sometimes there's very good feedback that comes from people, but I don't know, what are y'all's thoughts? Like, how do we how do we communicate our own pain when we are interacting with church people with um complaints? Yeah, Phil, you got any thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Well, that yeah, I mean it's so real. So, this my thoughts would be more for the audience if anybody, if any ministers are listening, but every minister goes through that, goes through their own version of I guess you could call it church hurt. I certainly have.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

And one, you know, one thing that I think a lot about is contextualizing the influence of the voice. So what on my worst days, what I end up doing is I give great uh weight to people that are lobbying grenades from the top row of the stadium. They don't know me. And then I have to kind of pray my way through that and think, okay, they have no idea really what's going on in my life. They just took a cheap shot, deep, deep breath. What what is my wife, my kids, the elders close to me, my friends, what is their view? And then that that can be very reorienting, is is just to give the proper weight to the proper voices.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

And then I and I do have a few a very few people, mentor to an elder that that I share. Like, hey, this man, someone said this, and this is awful and really hurt. And uh I've had to do some of that even lately.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Um you gotta you gotta have someone to to talk to.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

I I've made it, I don't I don't share with the church very much about that. Yeah, no, um, I don't know if I I don't know. Maybe there might be a reason to do that, but I've not done much sharing with the church about their hurt towards me.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Because it's usually isolated. Yeah. Uh sure.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Well then, like even if we did though, how would they take it? They'd be like, yeah, there's the complaining rooster, you know. They do the Uno reverse on us at that point, I think. You know, yeah. I mean it it really like I think in in in just little small brief moments, you guys tell me if you agree or disagree. I think it's uh like reading the audience, kind of if you don't feel touched on that, like reading your audience, knowing who you can have those moments with or who you can talk to. But um yeah, I mean, I think it depends on the person. I mean um we get I think a lot of times like you were mentioned the story about how the elders waited 18 months, like sometimes especially in congregations that are smaller. I I don't and I've kind of been in both. I grew up in what I call small church culture, and now I'm you know, people don't realize this, but anything over 250 in the church of Christ is considered large. I mean, I think I looked the other day and the average attendance in the church of Christ is 11 to 12,000 is like 65. So um, but yeah, I just knowing your audience, knowing who you can have this moment with, and but sometimes I do think leadership gets caught up in if we handle this, uh, we might lose people over it, or that I just don't feel like I've never been able to fully wrap my ha head around like um like that's how you could be thinking. Like, if if we do talk about this, we might lose people, or but the word like they're the rebuking word that people are terrified of, like there is a time where you have I believe that you have those conversations. Now, that doesn't mean you go all out, you kind of rebuke in the way that we probably think, like just all over them and and you know, but with love, you can if you love somebody, you're gonna have tough conversations with them. I think that's true. And and I do love people, and and when they're messing up, I want to be like, hey, brother, sister, I love you. But and I want them to do the same with me. Like they see me out acting a fool, and hey, you know, I had someone the other day that was just not I didn't do anything crazy, but hey, just remember you're the you're the minister, right? You're the you know, continuing to kind of keep that bar level for me. But but yeah, I think when you love somebody, you would be willing to have a tough conversation with. You're not gonna yeah, I don't know. Sorry, I went off the rails.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

No, you're well, I think there's a privilege in that. There, you know, imagine someone that is in the ivory tower just you know, writing a blog and has no connection with the people, they don't they don't have the privilege of having difficult conversations with people that might disagree. So there's actually a way to think about difficult conversations with members as this incredible opportunity to lean into the body of Christ and then to model, yeah, to model for that person. Well, this is actually what it looks like to uh not slander the other and to be calm or and to apologize, even like that. What a great way that I always think about that when people are mad at me, just okay, how can I model what Christ would want to happen here? And it's hard, it still hurts. Yeah, but it's it's a better it helps me just to think that this is a great opportunity to lean into the church.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Oh, yeah, yeah. And if we're honest, we have people that and and I this is kind of my personality, but I hope that you like me for but if you don't like me, I hope it's for you know a valid reason. I would hope you would come talk to me. But if we're all honest, we we all have people around us that we're they're not the biggest fans of us. Not that you need to be a fan of your preacher. I hope you're not, but um but for me, I'm still gonna smile, I'm still going to treat you with the dignity that someone created in the image of God deserves, and just gonna shake your hand or give you a fist bump, but I'm I'm not gonna treat you any different, you know. Uh but yeah. So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Yeah, that was thanks for indulging my tangents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

So um so we have two questions here that are kind of the same, but we'll get to the last one here in a little bit. But actually, I want you to ask number four because all right, number five's kind of my baby. It's it's yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Uh so for someone who has been deeply hurt by the church, what does a healthy path forward actually look like? Not just spiritually, but practically, like how do we how do we make it better?

SPEAKER_00 43:14

I think you might, you know, I would I would encourage the person to start with some discernment on the question of is this irritation or is this hurt? Um but if it is, if it's legitimate hurt, I think there's several things to do. There's uh if that person feels like there's a church leader that they trust enough, I I think it's really important to have a face-to-face meeting where you share what happened. And then obviously if you're that church leader, take it very seriously.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

And then I I think it's really important to depending on how deep the herd is, just I think counseling is a really good tool. And I I would encourage people to go to to counseling if that uh might be helpful. I you know, then nothing Thought is that it's well, I'm always interested in someone's long-term relationship with Jesus and when this happens. And so I think it's just important to remember that misguided Christians are not the same thing as authentic Christianity. And sometimes we conflate the two. But I mean, honestly, like Jesus himself was the ultimate survivor of church hurt. The people that put him on the cross were the assembly, the Sanhedrin, shouting, crucify and crucify him. And yet he still loved the church. And so I think there's a way to actually walk with the risen Jesus through church hurt and not to just throw him in with the people that hurt you and say, Well, Jesus must be bad too. No, there I think there's a pathway through it. And he himself would be a great model of that. So we can read, you know, the stories of Peter's you know reinstatement on the beach or the washing of the feet. Those are powerful passages to read for uh people hurt by the church. And and then maybe on a more practical front, just uh you know, when I'm hurt by church people, that tends to become so big.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

And I need to remember that that's actually a pretty narrow segment of the church, and there's all these beautiful things happening with whoever, you know, this wonderful teacher that teaches the kids every week, or this great elder's wife that's always made me apple pie, or you know, it's good to remember the goodness of the church, it's still there. We're just we're skewed when we're hurt. And then in a a close cousin to that thought is it's is a very simple idea, but if someone's experiencing church hurt and the source of that church hurt is still there, then it might be really helpful to change up the pattern of like physical patterns of how you're engaging with the parking lot and the hallways and where you sit. I mean, it's amazing that we we all are creatures of habit, so we end up doing the exact same things every week. So we talk to the same people, we see the same people. Well, if you just park in a different spot or show up five minutes earlier or later, or go to a different bathroom between service and class or whatever, that that's actually gonna put you into different people. And so that that can actually be really uh revolutionary uh for for these kinds of things. And then the final thing I would say is simply just be open to the pathway of forgiveness. I don't I don't want to shortchange that. And I would never when someone's sharing hurt with me, I don't just say, Well, Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother 70 times seven, so you should do that too. I I never start there, but as time goes, we all know this anger is it kills us. It it's you know, bitterness robs our own soul. And so eventually there needs to be dialogue, conversation, prayer about how how what what might the very first step towards the posture of forgiveness even look like in my context.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, you said something there. I was I actually had a wrote down a verse for this one, but Colossians 3 13 says, bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you have a grievance against someone, forgive as the Lord forgave you. So what I read into that verse is exactly what you're talking about. Like forgiveness has to be the ultimate goal, but in that is going to be the acknowledgement that something wrong happened, and then patience in the process. So um, you know, there's gonna be healing and it's it's practical, but you know, those are it's gonna have to be some humility, some patience, and forgiveness has to be the goal because, like you said earlier, our ultimate goal is someone's long-term spirituality. Um, but yeah, that's that's what I thought about right up right off the bat.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

So but uh I love that one another, bear with one another. Yes, I know it's such a powerful word. I I did I did a study on the Greek word one time there, and it basically means to put up with.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

You know, yes, there are days when I can we can love one another and serve one another and all that, but some days, like the most authentic expression of my discipleship to Jesus Christ is I'm gonna put up with you. That's about all I can do today. And like that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

That's so empowering to me. I don't have to just feel great about all people all the time. Some of them are really annoying. Yeah, okay. I'm gonna put up with you today.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

We're just gonna have to um forgive Miss Gertrude every Sunday Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yeah, that's uh inside joke. Inside joke, not a real person. Um, you know, I'm gonna I'm putting on y'all's hat for a second and thinking like a preacher. Scary thought, first of all. Um, but like I don't know if if church people, if our congregants have a a rich enough theology of the church to like, that's their natural response to forget and move on. I don't know if preaching that is the solution or not. My thought goes to like, okay, maybe maybe make a video or something, you know, to like, I don't know, tell a story about it, but like, I don't know what what's um would y'all preach something like that?

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Just like the way a minister feels? Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 49:20

No, or um a deeper theology of seeing the church is bigger than just yourself, and you know, it's you you have it in you to forgive and move on rather than leave the church and go somewhere else or something like that. Like I don't know. I'm just thinking, like, is that something that the church needs to hear? And if so, would you preach it?

SPEAKER_02 49:37

I I would think absolutely that's something the church need hopefully we've already been doing that. I I would think like I know I've uh had sermons where there's there was a lot of that in there about because that's something that I'm like I I pride myself on being good at is trying to look at the whole um not just because I'm a minister, but because you know um that's just the way that it is, you know. Um we were talking uh First Corinthians 12 in our men's Bible study this last Tuesday that we started here at League Street, and um that's part of what Paul is saying on that back half of of First Corinthians 12 is you know, we're talking about the body because unity is assumed. This isn't about an individual, this is about the church, right? And and so yeah, I would, I would, I would hope that we're already doing that. I don't know, Phil, what do you what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 50:29

I totally agree. I I have done that and I will do that. That's part of the calling of a preacher is to challenge Christians to grow up, and it's not gonna be your way every week. Yeah, my favorite quote on that is the Diedrich Bonhoeffer quote from Life Together, where he says it's it's gonna be a close paraphrase, but he says something like Um the uh the ideal, oh the one who loves the ideal of church more than church is a destroyer of the latter. And what he means by that is everybody has this vision of what they think church should be. Yeah, well, they're gonna sing all the songs I like, and I'm gonna get called for every volunteer opportunity, and everybody's gonna thank me for what I did, and the sermon's gonna be exactly the way I want it. That's the ideal.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

But when I actually have lodge that over Gertrude and the random lady who complains about the sign, and the you know, the person that was kind of hurt to me, I'm actually hurting the church that we're called to love the messy, broken people. And it's always gonna be messy and broken. And part of discipleship is learning to take a deep breath and bear with one another, just like Jesus did.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Yeah, that's that's exactly right. Good word. And and there is like we are gonna have to put up with people, yeah. But that's just a small, I think you kind of touched on this earlier, Phil. That's just a small part of there's so much more positive and more beautiful things happening. Like that I don't want any listener to feel like that's what we experience every day because it's not. It's a very small sample size of a life as a minister. So um there's much more to be thankful for. And and even in those moments, the I mean, I don't know. I'm just thinking about this, but consider like what a gift and a blessing it is that that we have a God that that said, hey, this is gonna be part of loving your brothers and sisters. Is sometimes you're just gonna have to let them speak and you know, let them feel heard and and and you're gonna have to put up with it. But man, what a stewardship we have there. I don't know, I was just kind of thinking on that. But do you have a follow-up? No, that's good stuff. That was good stuff, man. That was really good stuff. Okay, so here is um the question that I'm sure will take us down the path of chasing a squirrel or into the weeds, but um me and Rick, uh I'm gonna preface this by saying we've talked about this quite a bit, because um like I don't know if you can tell. I know our watchers and listeners can, but Phil, um, I'm sure you can tell who's a good cop and who's a bad cop sometimes now. Um, but I believe personally fake church hurt exists. And so that's what I want to talk about. Have you seen what some would call fake church hurt where it's less about real harm uh and more about the offense or the disagreement or not getting their way, which we've touched on, and and how do you separate real hurt from hurt that's not real? Now we've danced all around this, but I wanted to say the words fake church hurt today because I do think it exists. So I'm gonna let you take that away, and I'm just gonna sit back and and enjoy this one.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Well, I don't know if if I have any new thought, but it definitely church fake church hurt is real, I think.

unknown 54:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

And it's a matter of discernment on you know how to differentiate between the two. Like my kid didn't get a line in the puppet show, that's fake church hurt. Uh I didn't get a call to be a small group leader. That's fake church hurt. I guess I mean there's there's easy ones like that, but but then some of the messy middle is like I don't know. And so I I guess be I probably err on the side of um treating it like it's real, at least at the beginning, and then just asking lots of questions. And I I'm not sure if I know how to tell the difference. Well, yeah. Well, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 54:51

I think you it's only through I agree with you at in the very beginning, you have to treat it real because you don't there's no way of knowing, really. So then the important piece for me becomes conversation through listening. Like, you know, we've done this a while. I'm going, you're you know, 20 years, I'm going on 18. Rick, how many years have you been doing? 12th year. We've all done this long enough that after a few questions or moments of conversation, we kind of most of the time. Now there are and I'm not gonna say every time, but most of the time we can start to okay, this isn't exactly what they think that it is. So then I think it's up to us to start. I'm really big into the word reframing right now. I think it's because I'm doing a master's in leadership and I got two weeks, hallelujah, I'm done. But it's up to us to because we are um you know trying to set this standard theologically or spiritually. I think in some way it's up to us to start the conversation by kind of going to 180 and kind of reframing them maybe to what it might actually be. Does that make sense? Um, so I think conversation is probably the most important piece there. And I don't want to say investigating because I don't know that's in some way we are, but one, it's just a really good opportunity for conversation and then for the reframing to take place, like and not for me, like this is how I study with people and this is how I talk with people. I don't want them to ever think, oh man, Josh said this when really it was God's word. And I don't want them to ever say, Well, God Josh told me to do this when when I want them to see that it again, it was God's word and the influence of the spirit that kind of turned them the opposite way, right? So I want them through conversation to start thinking about wait, this may not be what I thought it was in the beginning. Like getting them, you know. I don't know. Does that make sense to you guys? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Yeah, I definitely think we are starting to like repeat ourselves, say some of the same things, um, which has been great. We said a lot of good things. Um, I'll say this again, I guess, but just it's it's real hurt to them whether it's you know something we can label as real or not. Um even someone's in my seat, you know, like that's a big deal for them for some reason. And so yeah, like you guys have said, having more conversations, I think I think there's a place for like the shepherding, discipling conversations to say, you know, hey, I'm sorry, sorry that happened. Um don't you think it's good that a visitor sitting here, I don't know, something some some sort of reframing it like you guys are saying. We're saying the same things, I think, at this point, but um yeah, I'm always cautious to to say, oh, it's not real hurt. Um and like there's I I feel like it's it's really easy for us to look at the the irritation. I love that phrase, the church irritation, and then the stuff that makes the news that's really bad. But I think living in the land in the middle is where it gets a lot harder. Um and so for me, I I would try to I think err on empathy. Um but like I said, I I can't really process times that people have well, maybe okay. Maybe there's our people who talk to me about stuff that I listen to, but I don't know. I'm thinking aloud now. You just have to be ministerial. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Another variable is it's the question of how to to what extent is this disgruntled person affecting the larger body with this complaint.

unknown 58:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

And so if it's an isolated, yeah, she really doesn't say anything to anybody else, she just complains about this to me once a month. Okay. But there are situations where someone's church hurt starts to bubble out from their own uh life and it starts to affect others. I I actually think that's impetus for leadership to be a little more assertive.

SPEAKER_03 59:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

We we had an example of this. Uh last week, there's a member that has this really strange, odd personal situation that he just keeps bringing up all the time and kind of his axe to grind in Bible class, prayer requests in the hallways, and and whether whether he's right or wrong about it, the details don't really matter, but people are just tired of hearing about it.

SPEAKER_03 59:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

And so two elders and a staff member pulled him aside last week and just said, You're you're gonna have to stop talking about this with members because other people are talking about it and it's not good for the church. And if you need to say something, you can come to us. Yeah, but they had to get really assertive, and I I appreciate that because it was harmful to the body at large. So I think that's a really important question to ask is to what extent is this person's hurt or complaint affecting the larger body?

SPEAKER_02 59:56

Yeah, that was a good question. What if it's someone that's left? Someone that's left the congregation, and then they go out and they're still projecting their perceived hurt onto others. What's the course of action then? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

I think yeah, I mean you leave the 99, go through the one. That's true. Uh, but at the same time, wow, mixing up um saying of Jesus with uh modern mare parable or uh phrase of you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Like what a weird smorgasbord there, but um so like sometimes people don't want reconciliation and they just want to move on. And so I think you can extend the olive branch, try to make peace. You know what does Paul say? Uh be at peace with everyone as much as it's possible with you. But that doesn't mean that they'll make peace. And so but yeah, that's that's a hard one.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

What's weird? Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Phil.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

Well, w uh when people leave, we're large church, people are in and out all the time, which is sad, but we we tend to, once they leave, not engage because there's just so much to be done with this block.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

Another another this is kudos to the elders. One thing they really committed to is uh so when members behave badly online, yeah, they do not engage those members online.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

What they will do, they've done this multiple times, is they've pulled a face-to-face meeting. Hey, just so you know what what you're writing on Facebook, other members are really starting to talk about it. I I think you want to watch what you're saying there. But they're doing it face-to-face. Yeah. Because boy, that that's a tricky one. When when members are stirring up controversy online, that's really hard to know what to do as as shepherds. So I I appreciate the face-to-face on that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

Yep. You know, I was sitting there thinking about uh two interactions that Christ had. Uh Nicodemus in John 3 and then Matthew 19, the rich young ruler. The face-to-face happens, and Christ shares, you know, with them, and then they walk away. And Christ doesn't run after them, he doesn't go beg them, he doesn't um try to reiterate. At that point, it's up to them. And so I think that's a good example that the church can follow. Like we share our peace, we have the face-to-face interaction, and then we leave it up to them, and they either walk away for good or um they go back and they reprocess the conversation and then they come back to the church. But I I I do think that's a good precedent that that Christ set in those instances where, like you said, the face-to-face happened, but then it's up to them at that point. And but yeah, I just I don't know. I was thinking about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

My brain is catching up. There's so much so many good little nuggets of truth in there and good good words.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

So uh Phil, thanks for being with us today, man. Do you have any other any other wisdom to drop on us or anything else you want to say?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

I don't. Thanks for having me on. Great conversation, super important topic. I'm glad you guys are bringing it up.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

And it's probably something we could keep talking about, but yeah, and but hopefully there's just you take one little thing from today, that's all we want. And um, whether you're a minister, an elder, or a congregant, you know, this is for everybody. But uh man, Phil, I am so thankful for you. And um, I was telling someone the other day, and I promise I did not mean this in a way that is taking advantage of you, but I was like, the guy never tells me no. And and I'm just like, that's so humbling to me to to you're always willing to help in any way that you can. And you're right now, I don't know if you know this, but you're more popular at League Street than than I am because people saw you speak over there at um uh Winterfest, and one of my elders was there and he came back and he's like, Man, there's this Phil guy from Emmoyle Road, and of course he loves Steven too. And and uh he was like, Man, I wish there was a way we could get him to League Street. And I was like, I could probably work it out, we'll see. And um, but I know how busy you are, so it means a lot to me that that you've taken the time to do this, and then you're gonna be coming here in August. And um, but so I I'm excited, and so thank you for being that way because I know Yeah, I'm no, I'm excited too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

It's all about connection. Yeah, I know. I love connecting.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:31

Oh, me too. I'm a relational guy, so uh, but thank you. That from the bottom of my heart, uh it really means a lot that you've you know been able to say yes to me these times. So absolutely. But uh, brother, hey, thank you so much. We're glad that you came on. And if you're in the Oklahoma City area, close to Memorial Road, you and you need a church family, you need to go, you need to go Memorial Road. Hear this guy and listen to him share his heart and watch the spirit work through him. So um incredible, incredible, incredible. And and uh, but thank you, man. We really, really appreciate it. Absolutely. All right, we're signing out. We'll catch you next time on uh the Burning Out Bush. See you later.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

And with that, we've come to the end of another fiery episode of Burning Out Bush. We hope today's discussion sparked some thoughts and maybe even a little bit of inspiration for you. Before you go tend to your own metaphorical bushfire, we've got a few small requests. If you've enjoyed this episode, please hit that subscribe or follow button on your podcast platform of choice. It ensures you never miss a spark from us. Also, a five-star review goes a long way in helping other folks find our little corner of the podcast world. Take a moment to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can follow the latest player ups and announcements by following us on social media. Find us on all platforms by searching for Burning Outbush Podcast. Do you have a burning secret, a professional meltdown, or a story about? Truly hitting rock bottom that you want to share? Well, we want to hear it. Fill out our totally anonymous form, and your story might be featured in a future segment where we read and discuss listener-submitted workplace woes and career cataclysms. You can find the form at our website, burningoutbush.com. Thank you for listening. We'll catch you next time when we fire up a whole new conversation on Burning Out Bush.